102. harr0004 - Nov. 9, 1998 - 4:34 PM PT
profemeritus:
Did you mean "supply-sider" or did they actually spell it with a 'c'
103. profemeritus - Nov. 9, 1998 - 4:37 PM PT
harr
The whole point is that it was spelled with a c.
104. Philistine - Nov. 9, 1998 - 4:39 PM PT
from Jay-Z's "Hard Knock Life"
"Let's take the dough and stay real jiggy, uh huh
Let's sip the Cris and get pissy pissy"
from R. Kelly's "Changing Faces"
"got me some sprinkles the hair with the wrinkles
if preferred his and her furs to the ankles
keep your friends buggin' lovin' all my ways
Jigga keep me jiggy all of my days"
from Puff Daddy's "I Got the Power"
"That nigga that you see in the videos
That nigga with the jewels and the jiggy hoes"
From LL Cool J's "Starsky & Hutch"
"Two big ballers keep the juice blending
Fuck Black Ceaser, I didn't like the ending
Why?, cos we two jiggy niggas always making
Too many million dollar affilliations"
I think these speak for themselves.
105. Philistine - Nov. 9, 1998 - 4:50 PM PT
ProfE -
Yes, I saw it, but really don't have anything to say on that account. Sorry.
106. marjoribanks - Nov. 9, 1998 - 4:55 PM PT
ProfE,
My theory (gratuitous) is that 'trolling' is derived from 'trawling' since that is the way it is used.
107. profemeritus - Nov. 9, 1998 - 5:10 PM PT
Philistine and Marjoribanks
I am not sure, but I suspected that trolling in the cyberworld meant tossing a nasty appelation at someone.
108. ChristinO - Nov. 9, 1998 - 5:13 PM PT
Trolling having nothing in common with tooling as in "tooling for nasty"?
109. Philistine - Nov. 9, 1998 - 5:14 PM PT
No, profE, I agree with Marj. What you describe is usually called "flaming." Mostly, I've heard "trolling" used synonymously with the slang "cruising," meaning to try and pick up a prospective mate, either actively or passively.
110. hashke - Nov. 9, 1998 - 5:15 PM PT
profemeritus:
neologism - 'a newly coined word, phrase, or expression, or a new meaning for an old word'. I think so, especially since the expression here plays upon 'sider'/'cider', obviously huckstering fermented apple juice.
111. ChristinO - Nov. 9, 1998 - 5:15 PM PT
Phil,
Thanks for the lyrics (uh, yeah). I don't know why it never occurred to me that just because Smith's song was the most famous he might not have been the inventor/initator of the phrase. Hip-Hop and Rap are pretty much foreign territory for me.
112. ChristinO - Nov. 9, 1998 - 5:17 PM PT
Ah, so tooling is probably some idiot derivation of trolling which came from trawling which is fishing out the back of your slow-moving motor boat with a big net, right?
113. Philistine - Nov. 9, 1998 - 5:21 PM PT
ChristinO -
You're welcome, I guess. I should let you know that I don't think much of any of the sources I quoted, or Will Smith. But I loved the Fresh Prince back in the late '80s before he got stale.
114. cllrdr - Nov. 9, 1998 - 5:25 PM PT
Is everyone as upset about the thoughtless use of the word "hopefully" as I am?
115. ChristinO - Nov. 9, 1998 - 5:28 PM PT
The little that I know of Smith is that he has chosen not to use obscenities in his music, he doesn't trust the government and he loves educational toys that he can play with with his kids. Other than that I never saw the Fresh Prince but I'm looking forward to Enemy of the State for pure mindless entertainment value.
116. Philistine - Nov. 9, 1998 - 5:29 PM PT
cllrdr -
Not as much as by "irregardless."
117. profemeritus - Nov. 9, 1998 - 5:33 PM PT
Hashke
Thanks; I think "supply-cider" is cute.
ChristinO and Philistine
I dug out "The Oxford Dictionary of New Words" and found this definition of "troll": "a person who posts an inflammatory electronic message." It also notes that "troll" and "trolling" can be used as verbs.
118. ChristinO - Nov. 9, 1998 - 5:35 PM PT
I get irritated by "ofTen", "TOwardS" and "mischievIous".
119. Philistine - Nov. 9, 1998 - 5:35 PM PT
Hmm...in that case, I think troll must come from wanting to evoke a small, ugly individual. That it got verbed (ouch!) is just part of a larger trend to verb all nouns, even 'verb.'
120. ChristinO - Nov. 9, 1998 - 5:39 PM PT
I used to call my brother a troll.
121. CharlieL - Nov. 9, 1998 - 5:40 PM PT
Doesn't "trolling" also refer to fishing with a net?
122. ChristinO - Nov. 9, 1998 - 5:41 PM PT
Chuck,
Yep and the rest of us fishermen get really irritated by it.
123. CharlieL - Nov. 9, 1998 - 5:42 PM PT
Message #118 - Ahhh, ofTen...
The word that marked the first appearance of the famous StAngorsian...
124. CharlieL - Nov. 9, 1998 - 5:43 PM PT
Christin, sometimes Annette can just go fishing by herself.
125. profemeritus - Nov. 9, 1998 - 5:44 PM PT
Charlie L
Where I came from, trolling meant any fishing while pulling lines or net with a boat.
126. harr0004 - Nov. 9, 1998 - 5:47 PM PT
profemeritus:
Don't they call the big commercial fishing ships "trawlers"?
127. profemeritus - Nov. 9, 1998 - 5:57 PM PT
harr
sure, but they (trawl and troll)are probably related, as someone suggested earlier.
128. IrvingSnodgrass - Nov. 10, 1998 - 2:35 AM PT
cllrdr Message #114:
I find I agree with Steven Pinker on this one. In "The Language Instinct" (pp. 381-383), he makes an excellent case for acceptance of "hopefully" in English usage, as it fills a void.
Consider the following sentence:
Hopefully, the treaty will pass.
It is impossible to reword this in a way which doesn't either sound stilted ("I hope that the treaty will pass.") or change the meaning ("It is hoped that the treaty will pass.").
Pinker goes on to point out that the suggested alternatives ("It is hoped that," "If hopes are realized") display four sins of bad writing: passive voice, needless words, vagueness, pomposity.
Finally, check out these examples:
I hope the treaty will pass, but it isn't likely.
It is hoped that the treaty will pass, but it isn't likely.
If hopes are realized, the treaty will pass, but it isn't likely.
Hopefully, the treaty will pass, but it isn't likely.
The final sentence sounds odd to me, and I doubt if it would ever be uttered. This, again, is evidence that "hopefully" does not function in the same way as its supposed replacements.
The main reason people object to "hopefully" is because of some alleged rule that "an English adverb must indicate the manner in which the actor performs the action." If a rule such as this existed, we would have to ban the following adverbs:
accordingly
admittedly
alarmingly
amazingly
basically
bluntly
candidly
confidentially
curiously
frankly
generally
happily
honestly
ideally
incidentally
mercifully
oddly
predictably
roughly
seriously
strikingly
supposedly
understandably
In fact, these (like hopefully) are what are called "sentence" adverbs, and indicate the attitude of the speaker toward the content of the sentence.
129. IrvingSnodgrass - Nov. 10, 1998 - 2:45 AM PT
KateWrath Message #69:
Since Marshallese is a member of the Micronesian sub-group of Austronesian languages, I can give you a very good guess as to the pronunciation of the words you listed.
I've looked at several dozen Austronesian languages from several sub-groups (Indonesian, Melanesian, Micronesian, and Polynesian), and all have featured penultimate stress.
So, my guess as to the pronunication of the words you listed, using a modified English spelling since I can't use IPA symbols here:
• rinamu - ree-NAH-moo
• lokileni - Low-kee-LAY-nee
• tara malolo - TAH-rah mah-LOW-low
• pandanus - this is a Latinized word, from the Malay "pandan" (PAHN-dahn). In English, it is pronounced "pan-DAN-us."
• eniwetok - a-nee-WAY-toke (I use "a" to signify sound of the name of the letter "A")
To Rustler and all discussing "jiggy":
I think the confusion here may come from two separate dialects of English using the same word in different ways. In Australian English, "jiggy" or "jiggy jig" has one and only one meaning: sexual intercourse. The same may be true of British English.
I would guess that the meaning in African-American English is quite different, but the similarity to the Antipodean (or British?) word causes confusion.
130. DanDillon - Nov. 10, 1998 - 5:33 AM PT
Irv,
Thanks for saving me the trouble wrt "hopefully."
Chuck,
You are a friggin' riot!
Along the '-ize' lines, here's a fun one--decadize. It means to categorize (gasp!) into a decade historical trends and events that, in fact, straddle a period of time touching different decades (as we once knew them). For example, what is generally referred to as the 60s typically includes events and trends stretching from, say '61 to about '73.
Personally, the "-izing" of certain words tickles me pink. It's the "-izing" of words we already have nice verbs for that irks me.
131. MrSocko - Nov. 10, 1998 - 5:58 AM PT
The problem with Pinker's sentence is its poor choice of words. "Hopefully" isn't the real issue. Rather it's that treaties don't *pass*, if by "pass" he means finish or expire. He's using "pass" in an old-fashioned sense -- as in, "This too will pass" -- which is why it comes across sounding stuffy. Now if one were to say "Hopefully the treaty will expire" that would make good sense and not look uncomfortable.
132. DanDillon - Nov. 10, 1998 - 6:07 AM PT
Socks,
As far as I'm able to tell, Pinker means "go through" or "be ratified" by "pass." In fact, the meaning you've assigned to Pinker's "pass" was, I thought, reserved only for dead people. You've swung and missed, I'm afraid.
133. Super80 - Nov. 10, 1998 - 6:10 AM PT
I'm waiting for all these internet abbreviations to make their way into spoken english, much the way "ASAP" or "Jeep" have.
Pet peeves:
"Say what?"
Interface used as a verb
Irregardless
Over used phrases and buzzwords:
At the end of the day...
SWAG (Scientific wild ass guess)
Tee it up
Paradigm
134. MrSocko - Nov. 10, 1998 - 6:18 AM PT
Dillon: You're correct, of course. But that only strengthens my point: "pass" is a poor choice of word. Better that the writer uses "concluded" or (less attractively) "ratified" instead.
135. IrvingSnodgrass - Nov. 10, 1998 - 6:24 AM PT
I don't know if this is a typo added by Scott Shuger in his reporting, or originally a mistake in the LA Times, but this morning's e-mail edition of Slate's "Today's Papers" contains the following quote:
"The LAT bothers to tell us that to hold together the House GOP caucus Livingston may have to, to coin a phrase, "resort to scotch tape and bailing wire," but doesn't tell us much about the ideological differences operating except to say that Livingston has been slammed by the WSJ editorial page and is also disliked by something called the Traditional Values Coalition."
An interesting neologism (or typo), this "bailing wire." Is it something used to inneffectually bail out a boat? Or perhaps something used by cheaters at cricket to ensure the bails won't fall? Either way, the proper term is "baling wire," which, of course, is commonly used to hold bales together.
136. IrvingSnodgrass - Nov. 10, 1998 - 6:30 AM PT
Super80:
I admit to having used "brb" in real life (but only with fraygrants).
Although I like to think of myself as a descriptive linguist, I am still irked as well when I come across a number of the pet peeves people have listed above. I'll never forget the can of worms I opened when I first listed my pet peeves (two years ago, in the early days of the old Language thread), so I won't do it again (though hearing ofTen will always grate on my ears).
137. wabbit - Nov. 10, 1998 - 6:35 AM PT
dub dub dub = www
wizzywig = wysiwyg
138. DocBrown - Nov. 10, 1998 - 6:54 AM PT
I have a serious pet peeve with all irregularities in English. We should throw out every word that has ever been written in this gawdawful language, which requires excessive thought and interferes with efficient communication.
Then we should all learn to speak Ebonics.
139. IrvingSnodgrass - Nov. 10, 1998 - 7:16 AM PT
Doc:
Ebonics has all the rules of English, and more. So, if you're looking for a language which doesn't involve excessive thought or interference with efficient communication, you'll have to look elsewhere.
140. Msivorytower - Nov. 10, 1998 - 7:20 AM PT
I'll tell you MY all time pet of peeves:
misspellings.
Yes, people who misspell their words.
It's just so damn annoying. My teeth nash everytime I see it.
*Have I mentioned I made All-State Spelling Champion when *I* was in high school?
(MsIt grins)
141. Ronski - Nov. 10, 1998 - 7:20 AM PT
Irv,
Any suggestions where to look? Seriously, anybody, which languages are considered to be the most efficient? The most modern? The most archaic? I understand the average Lithuanian can understand a few basic, short phrases in Sanskrit; but then, Sanskrit and the prakrits probably wouldn't be considered all that archaic in the first place, only ancient, yes? No?
142. MrSocko - Nov. 10, 1998 - 7:21 AM PT
Hey, I for one would like to see some pet peeves. Here are a few of mine:
• "criterion" and "criteria" -- always used by losers.
• the use of asterixi to denote vulgarisms -- wot's wrong with just writing "fuck," rather than "f**k"?
• excessive use of commas, rather than writing in modern English -- Ned Fagan used to be a mortal offender in this respect.
• "I don't suffer fools gladly" -- a self-description favored by wankers.
• The totally outmoded device of using capitals to lend importance to Certain Words. Ditto for using quotation marks around "cliches and slang."
143. MrSocko - Nov. 10, 1998 - 7:23 AM PT
Ronski: French is probably the most efficient language. Certainly it's the cleanest.
144. IrvingSnodgrass - Nov. 10, 1998 - 7:40 AM PT
MrSocko:
I agree with all your pet peeves. Though in a format such as this, with neither bold nor italics available, I favor *asterisks* (where do you come up with "asterixi"?) to denote emphasis.
French? Got to be the worst language around for efficiency.
Ronski:
It's hard to judge languages critically in such a way. All languages have built in redundancy and inefficiency, because human minds work that way. Lithuanian, as you indicate, merely preserves more of the assumed Proto-Indo-European forms, but an archaic language does not in any way indicate an efficient one.
I have seen a strong case made for Chinese, due to its analytic syntax, and Turkish, due to its supposed inherent logic, as the most efficient languages.
My vote? I choose English. Having a larger vocabulary than any other language in the world has to lead to a better ability to communicate clearly. It's only logical.
145. hashke - Nov. 10, 1998 - 7:44 AM PT
MsIt:
It was not gnash of you to write that about us mispellers.
146. hashke - Nov. 10, 1998 - 7:46 AM PT
MrSocko:
Could you pliz explain to us the efficiency and cleanliness of French.
Is it a matter of octane or additives?
147. Ronski - Nov. 10, 1998 - 7:47 AM PT
Irv,
Many thanks.
You make an excellent point about the richness of English.
148. DocBrown - Nov. 10, 1998 - 8:01 AM PT
Sure, English has a rich vocabulary. I like having a lot of words, but all the useless and excessive rules throw a monkey wrench into our communication. We are sabotaging ourselves.
Those who have any spelling pet peeves need to get a life. If you want people to spell correctly then change all spelling to simple phoenetics. We spend way too much time and money learning to communicate in this lousy language.
I favor drastically reducing the amount of money allocated to training and paying English teachers. This would force our language to become streamlined and simple.
149. DocBrown - Nov. 10, 1998 - 8:07 AM PT
MrSocko:
I have seen other Internet BBS's, Mailing Lists, and even chatrooms that will automatically reject any message with vulgarisms such as "fuck." It is an old habit of many Internet veterans to insert asterisks when composing messages containing these words.
150. DanDillon - Nov. 10, 1998 - 8:18 AM PT
"I favor drastically reducing the amount of money allocated to training and paying English teachers. This would force our language to become streamlined and simple."
Hell, why doncha just say you favor undermining education and pathways to intelligence everywhere?! Silly man.
151. ChristiPeters - Nov. 10, 1998 - 8:21 AM PT
My language pet peeve is using "real" used where "very" belongs, as in:
"The ice cream was real good."
I also hate "good" used where "well" belongs.
From a friend of my daughter:
"I did real good on the math test."
*shudder*
152. IrvingSnodgrass - Nov. 10, 1998 - 8:21 AM PT
Doc:
"Sure, English has a rich vocabulary. I like having a lot of words, but all the useless and excessive rules throw a monkey wrench into our communication. We are sabotaging ourselves."
You know, if you think about it, you are probably talking about a few prescriptive rules, which were foisted unnecessarily upon the language and are on their way out.
"Those who have any spelling pet peeves need to get a life. If you want people to spell correctly then change all spelling to simple phoenetics. We spend way too much time and money learning to communicate in this lousy language."
It's "phonetics." ;-)
"I favor drastically reducing the amount of money allocated to training and paying English teachers. This would force our language to become streamlined and simple."
As one who runs an English school, I'd love to get away with paying English teachers less. But they earn too little already. Very little money is allocated to training any paying English teachers already. If you cut that off, you won't simplify the language, but you will increase the number of people who can't communicate clearly in writing.
153. harr0004 - Nov. 10, 1998 - 8:33 AM PT
MrSocko:
"French is probably the most efficient language.Certainly it's the cleanest."
I can't imagine where you got this idea.
If you think clean because of swear words, they just use religous references instead of sexual.
But I assume you mean pure and if so you are way off base. French is one the fastest changing and expanding languages in the world. In Quebec they have established an official government agency, based on a French one, with the sole purpose of trying to keep French pure and dominant(there was a 60 minutes story on it "The Language Police").
154. DanDillon - Nov. 10, 1998 - 8:33 AM PT
The fact that English is a highly analytical language also contributes to its efficiency. Chinese, for its isolating/root qualities, would be a contender as well, no?
155. Ronski - Nov. 10, 1998 - 8:37 AM PT
I believe there are language police in Israel (for Modern Hebrew) and in Iceland, as well.
156. JebXXX - Nov. 10, 1998 - 8:38 AM PT
Ronski:
Pardon me. Was message #141 the first mention in this column about the Lithuanian language and its relationship to Sanskrit? Thanks.
157. DocBrown - Nov. 10, 1998 - 8:42 AM PT
Irv said to me:
> It's "phonetics." ;-)
That's just too funny. Woo-Hoo!
To DanDillon:
What would you do? With every generation we need to learn more just so that we can cope with daily life. The natural world already offers plenty of complexity, why add to it unnecessarily? Language is a human artifact. We created it and we can control it. If we reduce the complexity of language, we could devote more of those scarce educational resources to advancing the quality of life.
158. DocBrown - Nov. 10, 1998 - 8:50 AM PT
Kind of tangential to the subject of this thread: Has anyone heard any good spin words lately, that stretch words to put a positive spin on something bad?
For example, I know a hospital unit where they refer to the death of a patient as a "Celestial Discharge."
159. boohab - Nov. 10, 1998 - 8:56 AM PT
we been done been speaking ebonics. it aint nothing new.
160. DanDillon - Nov. 10, 1998 - 8:56 AM PT
Your argument is extremely faulty. The leaps in logic that you make strike me as comical.
But I will respond. Language, as you pointed out, is a human artifact and is therefore a tool that we shall continue to refine and improve. In so doing, we are bound to make English expand rather than contract. Irv has suggested that the functions of the human brain are reflected in the details of human language. Wouldn't it stand to reason, then, with such a complex tool as the brain driving language that language itself will be an intricate, sprawling thing? It is in our nature to expand. Thus, language is sure to follow suit.
161. IrvingSnodgrass - Nov. 10, 1998 - 9:10 AM PT
Dan Message #154:
Please note that I mentioned Chinese in Message #144. I think English's analytic nature has a great deal to do with its success as a world language... and English is becoming more and more analytic.
I like your Message #160... very nicely worded.
JebXXX:
In *this* Language thread, yes. But we have spoken of Indo-European languages many times in the Fray. It's one of my favorite topics.
Doc:
"We created it and we can control it."
Au contraire. We cannot control language. It's been tried.
boohab:
Nice post. Very clear confirmation of my earlier point about Ebonics!
162. JebXXX - Nov. 10, 1998 - 9:11 AM PT
DocBrown:
re #158. Start with "downsizing" and go from there.
163. hashke - Nov. 10, 1998 - 9:41 AM PT
Consider efficiency and complexity. Any native speaker of a language finds his own language perfectly efficient, whatever the deeper meaning of that may be. It probably means that he can manipulate it in any way he chooses in order to communicate about matters large and small and to understand the multiple nuances of the speech of others in his culture. He recognizes the complexities in his own language, but generally has little trouble in dealing with them.
This same speaker when confronted with learning another language, a Navajo learning Enlish for example, or an English speaker taking on Navajo, is confounded by the complexities of the new language. Until he totally dominates the new language he will undoubtably be frustrated by his inability to use it as 'efficiently' as he does his own language.
164. boohab - Nov. 10, 1998 - 9:47 AM PT
english works because it is a modern extensible language, as is german. there is something about it, as i recall, that works particularly well with the way technology and innovation extend our knowledge. it's the whole deal with latin roots, prefixes and suffixes that makes english words easy to create from scratch.
in addition, a whole passle of speakers allows a blending effect that extends the language. it is not fiercely exlusive in its construction but rather flexible. i don't believe that there is any other language with so many 'pidgins' as english. it is an integrative language.
plus it's idiomatic. i don't know how unique that is as a linguistic feature, french has idioms as does russian. but i dont' seem to recall any in spanish.
165. boohab - Nov. 10, 1998 - 9:50 AM PT
speaking of latin, i'm collecting a list of idioms. can y'all provide me with any more?
ipso facto
de facto
cogito ergo sum
tempus fugit
quid pro quo
carpe diem
semper fidelis
i don't know what 'tempus fugit' means, nor 'ipso facto' and i'm also not sure about 'sine qua non'.
what's up with that?
166. boohab - Nov. 10, 1998 - 9:53 AM PT
btw, i am also the william safire of hiphop slang (well, the old school flavor anyway). some kids in the netherlands are keepers of the official website http://www.sci.kun.nl/thalia/rapdict/
167. Philistine - Nov. 10, 1998 - 10:02 AM PT
tempus fugit = time flies
168. hashke - Nov. 10, 1998 - 10:15 AM PT
boobab:
All languages have idioms. They are the marrow of language.
ipse facto=by that very fact
sine qua non=literally, 'without which not', i.e., a necessity
I think that the only other word in your list that is truly idiomatic is 'carpe diem'---'seize the day', an idiomatic expression for 'grab the opportunity'.
169. harr0004 - Nov. 10, 1998 - 10:17 AM PT
hashke:
Most of the non native English speakers I've met seem to think that English is one of the easiest languages to learn enough to just get by with and one of the hardest to be truly adept at.(One guy knew Greek,two African languages,Italian and English)
170. Ronski - Nov. 10, 1998 - 10:28 AM PT
I was recently told that native speakers of Albanian find the sounds of English rather easy to duplicate.
Why I've contributed this thought, I can't explain.
171. DocBrown - Nov. 10, 1998 - 10:30 AM PT
Irv said:
> Au contraire. We cannot control language.
> It's been tried.
We may not be able to control its evolution (ala Quebec) but we can loosen our standards of what is acceptable. For example, we could take a bold step and allow forms of the to be verb more flexibility. I can just picture Dan Rather:
"It appears that Congress be making good on their threat to impeach President Clinton. Whitehouse spokespeople was somber today, as the President and Mrs. Clinton is packing their bags and heading back to Arkansas."
See? You can still tell the meaning of those sentences. *Some* complexities help make a language more useful, but extraneous irregular rules just make it difficult without adding to the quality of communications at all.
172. DanDillon - Nov. 10, 1998 - 10:34 AM PT
boohab Message #164,
Would you be kind enough to gloss "passle"?
173. hashke - Nov. 10, 1998 - 10:35 AM PT
harr:
Probably one of the reasons that English has become the lingua franca of the world. It's even the language used between control towers and aircraft all over the world.
Hope that your Sherpa pilot is up on his English when he flies into JFK!
174. IrvingSnodgrass - Nov. 10, 1998 - 10:36 AM PT
Doc:
English has been losing inflections such as the forms of the verb "to be" steadily over the centuries, and I'm sure the trend will continue, as the language becomes increasingly analytic. But it will occur through natural forces, not control.
175. harr0004 - Nov. 10, 1998 - 10:42 AM PT
hashke:
Poor Esperonto(sp?) never had a chance, I don't even think I remember how to spell it.
176. IrvingSnodgrass - Nov. 10, 1998 - 10:52 AM PT
Ronski:
"I was recently told that native speakers of Albanian find the sounds of English rather easy to duplicate."
Hey, anything's easy for a people who call themselves "Shqipëri." Try pronouncing some of these Albanian words: gjarpër (snake), zjarm (fire), mblidhet (gathers), and these place names: Rrogozninë, Gjirokastër, Ljbhazhd, and Gramsh.
177. DanDillon - Nov. 10, 1998 - 11:00 AM PT
Ha! Nice one, Irv.
178. marshame - Nov. 10, 1998 - 11:06 AM PT
boohab
ergo
et cetera
versus
ad nauseum
179. marshame - Nov. 10, 1998 - 11:08 AM PT
DocBrown
Forget "downsizing". It's "rightsizing". (Unless, of course you're on the outside side of the "right" size.)
180. DocBrown - Nov. 10, 1998 - 11:08 AM PT
DanDillon Message #160
I think I covered this in my response to Irv Message #171, but to directly address your question: it's fine that the language becomes more complex as our society becomes more complex. But irregularities in spelling and grammar only serve as burdens.
As I understandit, Spanish is a fairly simple and straightforward language. I have no personal experience in this area.
181. harr0004 - Nov. 10, 1998 - 11:13 AM PT
marshame:
Notice how the "right-size" always seems to be down?
182. DanDillon - Nov. 10, 1998 - 11:38 AM PT
"[W]e can loosen our standards of what is acceptable. [W]e could take a bold step and allow forms of the to be verb more flexibility."
We could render the language incomprehensible. We could slpinter and create so many linguistic factions that we'll all end up speaking divergent dialects. We could undermine all conventions that successful communication relies upon. We could all become mutually unintelligible. We could subvert the system. We could smash the state.
183. Ronski - Nov. 10, 1998 - 11:41 AM PT
I think my source's Gramps came from Gramsh.
184. philistine - Nov. 10, 1998 - 11:42 AM PT
I like the sound of those last two, Dan.
185. Ronski - Nov. 10, 1998 - 11:46 AM PT
Dan,
The public schools are beating you to it on the first three.
186. hashke - Nov. 10, 1998 - 11:48 AM PT
Irv:
You ain't going to generalize that speakers of a difficult language are going to find English less difficult because of the complexity of their own language, are you?
Hey, Navajos have such convolutions as 't'áá álaji' ahé'éts'ihgo' and 'tl'e'e'shí'íts'ihí', yet they have a hell of a time learning English pronunciation---as well as structure, of course. Those spectacular Navajo phonetics do not make the less dramatic English sounds any easier for them.
Structure is a whole nother problem, as they say. How comfortable they are with their incredible Navajo language and how they do struggle with ours.
187. DanDillon - Nov. 10, 1998 - 11:50 AM PT
Ah, nother.
188. JebXXX - Nov. 10, 1998 - 11:51 AM PT
Quick questions for you geniuses:
What is a mojo? Either Jimmy Smith or Wes Montgomery wrote, years ago, "Got my Mojo Workin'."
What's the meaning of Sturm und Drang?
Thanks
189. hashke - Nov. 10, 1998 - 11:53 AM PT
harr:
Regarding Esperanto, I have never had much interest in contrived languages. It's so much more fun to learn the real thing.
190. ChristiPeters - Nov. 10, 1998 - 11:54 AM PT
um, I think mojo = magic
191. IrvingSnodgrass - Nov. 10, 1998 - 11:55 AM PT
Hashké:
Don't worry... my Albanian post was facetious, as Dan caught in Message #177.
But I'll bet English speakers have an even *harder* time learning Navajo phonology!
192. ChristiPeters - Nov. 10, 1998 - 11:56 AM PT
"The public schools are beating you to it on the first three."
Could be. My daughter is in fifth grade and has never had to diagram a single sentence. Shameful!
&:o)
193. DocBrown - Nov. 10, 1998 - 11:56 AM PT
Really, DanDillon, you take the English language way too seriously. It's just a language!
If I read you correctly, then you are claiming that the very foundation of our civilization will crumble without strict adherence to the irregularities of the to be verb!
I assure you that if we all got lazy in our conjugation of that or any other verb, civilization would find a way to survive. Even if we started to dangle prepositions, somehow the human race would carry on.
194. hashke - Nov. 10, 1998 - 12:00 PM PT
Jeb:
Sturm und Drang=storm and stress, a period of unrest and revolt. It was a German literary movement in the latter half of the 18th century
195. hashke - Nov. 10, 1998 - 12:03 PM PT
Irv:
Right! You know about the difficulties from personal experience, n'est-ce pas?
196. hashke - Nov. 10, 1998 - 12:10 PM PT
Yes, Irv, I caught Dan's catch, and before that surmised that you were performing tongue in cheek.
Ah, them idioms.
197. IrvingSnodgrass - Nov. 10, 1998 - 12:12 PM PT
hashké:
*limited* experience.
If anyone is looking for a language with easy-to-learn phonology, I recommend Indonesian (or, in fact, *any* Austronesian language... Hawaiian has only a handful of sounds, for instance).
198. DanDillon - Nov. 10, 1998 - 12:12 PM PT
"Really, DanDillon, you take the English language way too seriously."
Perhaps.
"If I read you correctly..."
You didn't. It was sarcasm, dolt.
199. JebXXX - Nov. 10, 1998 - 12:18 PM PT
Language observation plus request for psychoanalytic info on myself:
Am I the only person whose fillings are nearly popped from her teeth when she hears something described as being Kafkaesque?
200. hashke - Nov. 10, 1998 - 12:40 PM PT
Jeb:
That must be quite the trial.