1. FrayVader - Oct. 5, 1998 - 6:32 PM PDT
Welcome to a very special occasion in the Fray. For the first time ever, we have an actual real live author discussing his book in a Reading thread! The book: Open Secret: Gay Hollywood 1928-1998. The author: David Ehrenstein.

David Ehrenstein (cllrdr) been writing about film and the arts for thirty- three years for publications including Film Quarterly, Film Comment, Film Culture, the Village Voice, Rolling Stone, Sight and Sound, Cahiers du Cinema, the Los Angeles Times, Daily Variety, and the Advocate. His previous books include "Rock on Film," co-author Bill Reed (G.P. Putnam's, 1982), "Film: The Front Line -- 1984" (Arden press, 1984), and "The Scorsese Picture: The Art and Life of Martin Scorsese" (Birch Lane, 1982).

Here in the Fray, he's kept us entertained for nearly a year now with his breezy style and juicy gossip. Buy the book -- support our fraygrants! -- and join in the discussion of Open Secret: Gay Hollywood 1928-1998.

2. cllrdr - Oct. 5, 1998 - 6:37 PM PDT
Thank you FrayVader. Thank you Fraysters. Thank you Ladies and Gentlemen, and all the members of the Sarah Siddons Society for this award. I would like to thank . . . well you get the picture.

We begin our reading with the Prologue and Chapter One.

But first, the Acknowlegements.

3. patsyrolph - Oct. 5, 1998 - 6:39 PM PDT
I'm clutching my copy and waiting eagerly for the author.

4. patsyrolph - Oct. 5, 1998 - 6:40 PM PDT
ooops, there is the author.

5. cllrdr - Oct. 5, 1998 - 6:45 PM PDT
Jonathan Benair was one of my closest friends. He passed away just as the book was going to press. A great wit, and a great heart, he drove me to more film screenings than I can remember. You can find out more about him at www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/nelc/grads/swartz/jb/benair.html

6. cllrdr - Oct. 5, 1998 - 6:52 PM PDT
Paul Bresnick is my editor at Morrow, without whom...
Meredith Brody is a friend of many years, and a fine food writer for "New Times" Los Angeles.
Sharon Butler is a former landlady who became a close friend. She was instrumental in helping me through my stroke.
Tiffany Ann Rose Butler is Sharon's daughter. 10 years old and a Spice Girl in training.
Michael Caruso is currently the editor-in-chief of "Details." He was the editor-in-chef of "Los Angeles" magazine when the article that jumpstarted this book ( and appears in altered form in Chapters Six and Eleven) was first published.
Bob Cohen is head of the legal department at 20th Century Fox. He was Richard Rouillard's lover.
Brad Confer runs Bloomsbury Books in Palm Springs. he introduced me to "Bachelor" magazine.
Esther Crayton is the widow of Jazz great Pee Wee Crayton. She livs next door, and helped me enormously at the time of my stroke.

7. cllrdr - Oct. 5, 1998 - 7:01 PM PDT
Mitchell Fink is a columnist for the New York "Daily news." He also contributes to "Showbiz Today" on CNN. I've known him since the late 70's when we worked together at the "Herald-Examiner."
Bob Foster works for Image video, a laser and DVD purveyor. A close friend for the past ten years.
Larry Gross is the author of the invaluable "Contested Closets" (University of Minnesota Press, 1993)
Alan Helms is the author of "Young Man From the Provinces: A Gay Life Before Stonewall" (Faber & Faber, 1995) Homosexuality doesn't get any more fabulous than Alan.
Bill Higgins writes currently for "Daily Variety." he's the only Socialite/Buddhist I know.
Robert Hofler writes for "Daily Variety" and lives in the pied-a-terre once owned by Cary Grant and Randolph Scott. So far, no ghosts.

8. cllrdr - Oct. 5, 1998 - 7:16 PM PDT
Mark Horowitz is currently at "New York" magazine. He was my editor on the "Los Angeles" piece.
Thomas Pasaieri is a great modern American composer. His opera of "The Three Sisters" is a masterpiece. He makes his living arranging for Disney, and James Horner. We went to the same piano teacher back in Flushing Queens in the 50's.
Abraham Polonsky is my favorite communist. He took me to lunch a year and a half ago. He wrote and directed a masterpiece called "Force of Evil" in 1949. He didn't get a repeat performance until "Tell Them Willie Boy is Here" in 1969. He is my role model.

Well actually, Kitty Carlisle is my role model too. So a complete picture of yours truly would be a cross between Kitty Carlisle and Abraham Polonsky.

Terry Press is the head of publicity for Dreamworks. She's an old friend, who encouraged David Geffen to call me.
Ben Schafer is Paul Bresnick's assistant, and a stand-up guy. He edited "The Herbert Hunke Reader."
Charlotte Sheedy is my agent.
Yes she's Ally Sheedy's "out" lesbian mother.
Julia Sweeney is a great commedienne, whose great heart helped me through a dark time (that damned stroke!)

Then there's something called The Fray.

The Margaret Herrick Library is where everyone doing film research MUST go. Ask for Sandra.
Midway hospital is where my boyfriend took me when I had my stroke, and the Rancho Los Amigos Medical Center is where I was shipped out a week later. Jan Berry of Jan & Dean was rehabilitated there after that accident on Dead Man's Curve.

And now i'm going to eat dinner. Back later y'all!

9. cllrdr - Oct. 5, 1998 - 7:50 PM PDT
I'm Back!

Richard Rouilard was -- and still is -- one of the msot important people in my life. I met him at the "Herald Examiner" when he became an editor in the "Style" section. He was (and is) the most "out" person I have ever known. Gay-haters at the paper cringed in terror at the sight of him. They knew their derision meant absolutely nothing. He taught me everything about journalism. He also taught me how to be fabulous.
He died of AIDS early in 1996. Some of the best times I've ever had were at his death bed.

10. cllrdr - Oct. 5, 1998 - 7:53 PM PDT
Bill Reed is my boyfriend of 28 years. You can get his book, "'Hot From Harlem': Profiles in Classic African-American Entertainment" (Cellar Door Books) is available through Amazon.com

11. Blaise - Oct. 5, 1998 - 8:06 PM PDT
Congratulations on your book, cllrdr! That's great. I'll order the book.

I hope there were no invasions of privacy, however, in the making of this book!

12. cllrdr - Oct. 5, 1998 - 8:11 PM PDT
None whatsoever Blaise. As you'll read in the book, no one's privacy need be violated to get this story. It's all there in plain sight.

13. bubbaette - Oct. 5, 1998 - 8:15 PM PDT
Cllrdr

thanks for explaining the acknowlegements. I always wonder about those when I read a book. Your picture on the cover is much too small.

14. CalGal - Oct. 5, 1998 - 8:24 PM PDT
Cellar,

Check your email, where I've just sent you instructions on how to do links.

Jonathon Benair

15. mariagleason - Oct. 5, 1998 - 8:27 PM PDT
Cllr, I was waiting for your explication to begin, but what the heck - congratulations!

16. cllrdr - Oct. 5, 1998 - 8:28 PM PDT
Thanks, CG!
bubbaette -- I'm going to have them make it larger for the trade paperback edition.

17. CharlieL - Oct. 5, 1998 - 8:33 PM PDT
cllrdr:

For VicKuligan's benefit, did you include a table in which you guess when each of the living subjects of your book will get AIDS and die?

18. CharlieL - Oct. 5, 1998 - 8:34 PM PDT
And, from me, congratulations on the book also!

19. CalGal - Oct. 5, 1998 - 8:36 PM PDT
And Cellar, until this moment I hadn't read the acknowledgements.

WOW!

The Fray is mentioned.

Too cool.

20. cllrdr - Oct. 5, 1998 - 8:39 PM PDT
Charlie -- I'm going to let them take bets over in "Starr Report.' It's a love fest going on in there.

Maria -- I'll start explicating when you guys start lobbing questions. I think that's the best way to go.

21. cllrdr - Oct. 5, 1998 - 8:43 PM PDT
Suffice to say the Prologue is my all-purpose "explanation" of homosexuality. Read it, Vic, and learn.

On a more serious note, I trust Pseudo will have something cogent to say about the Prologue, as it contains ideas we were discussing a few days ago.

22. fred1717 - Oct. 5, 1998 - 8:44 PM PDT
Congratulations. Is the Siddons society anything like the Ellen James Society?

23. cllrdr - Oct. 5, 1998 - 8:53 PM PDT
Don't know the Ellen james society. The Sarah Siddons Society held its first meeting in "All About Eve." I don't quite know how to break this to you, Fred -- but you're straight!

24. CalGal - Oct. 5, 1998 - 8:54 PM PDT
Ellen James is from, I think, The World According to Garp?

25. FrayVader - Oct. 5, 1998 - 8:56 PM PDT
Cllrdr:
Perhaps you can give us a summary of the prologue, to get us started. This method has worked well in other reading threads (sort of a "Cliff's Notes" approach).

26. patsyrolph - Oct. 5, 1998 - 8:59 PM PDT
I'm on record as saying I enjoyed your book cllrdr. I'll say it again. I enjoyed your book.In response to Blaise's question I think you have done an admirable job in protecting privacy. It can't have been easy. I told you I was doing research (asking questions)and many unsurprising names were given to me. yeah, yeah, I said but did that person publicly declare he/she was gay? Didn't have to, everybody knew/knows was the usual response and "everybody knows" is a poor legal defense and must be frustrating for an author. On the other hand, I did come up with one bona fide from the Lucy show.

27. fred1717 - Oct. 5, 1998 - 9:04 PM PDT
CalGal is correct! Ellen James was a young woman who had been raped, and refused to speak thereafter; the Ellen James Society was organized and consisted of women (Femocrats? sorry, wrong thread) who had cut out their tongues in solidarity with Ellen James and in protest to male whatever. Garp's mother became a leader in the group, joined by such as Roberta Muldoon, a transexual who formerly played tight end in the NFL.

28. cllrdr - Oct. 5, 1998 - 9:06 PM PDT
O.K. FrayVader.
Homosexuality always starts with an explanation. And continues with an explanation. And ends with an explanation. In fact, the explanation never seems to end. ordinarily all the explaining is done by some Authority Figure who, needless to say, ISN'T homosexual. We're not supposed to speak at all -- just sit still and be good little "subjects." My book is designed to have the actual words (and lives) of actual gays and lesbians taking center stage -- without anyone having to wear a lobster bib or anything. The Prologue is a way to clear all that traditional quasi-scientific nonsense out of the way. It's "up to date" too as it revolves around the latest "theory" as to the "cause" of homosexuality -- genetics and the hypothalamus. I'm thinking of writing a sequel in which I explain the true cause: musical comedy production numbers featuring Dolores Gray.
Hey it did it for me!
That plus Alain Delon and -- voila -- one homosexual, piping hot!

29. cllrdr - Oct. 5, 1998 - 9:17 PM PDT
Fred -- I'm not about to cut out ANYTHING.

Patsy -- First off, thanks! The whole How-do-you-know? and Did-they-declare-it-publically is the whole heart of this bloody business. Same-sexuality isn't -- yet -- a neutral characteristic. It's seen as a defining principle. As I say in the book to know that someone is gay is to "have their number." What you have in fact is their area code. What do we know about Rock Hudson after all? The more I learned the more mysterious he became. How does Rupert Everett's "out-ness" function? I have no idea who he's going with at the moment, and i know a lot of his friends. I don't think most of them know either. So who is Rupert Everett? Well you can read his novel "Hello Darling -- Are You Working?" and get a pretty good idea. And when you do you'll find he has absolutely nothing in common with Elton John, or Gus Van Sant, or Gregg Louganis, or Steve Kmetko, or -- well you get the picture. Consequently writing this book was a process of exploring myths in order to explode them.

30. 109109 - Oct. 5, 1998 - 9:23 PM PDT
cllrdr

I'm reminded of when Magic Johnson came back to the Lakers after he was tested as HIV positive, and a few players (Karl Malone) said publicly that they were concerned about transmission during a game. And the Rock Hudson/Linda Evans "Dynasty" kiss. As AIDS cut its swath through Hollywood, were there similar responses ("I won't work with so and so") and if so, give up nice, undisciplined jaunt, just like they said you would in Entertainment Weekly.

31. cllrdr - Oct. 5, 1998 - 9:24 PM PDT
The Monopoly game recalled in the opening of Chapter One actually took place. No Mike Barnacle nonesense for this gay boy!

Susan, of course, is Not Her Real Name.

32. cllrdr - Oct. 5, 1998 - 9:27 PM PDT
That's dealt with Chapter Six, Niner. BTW, do you know how Magic became infected? The same way Eddie Murphy almost got arrested.

33. cllrdr - Oct. 5, 1998 - 9:28 PM PDT
But I don't gossip, so you didn't hear that from me!

34. 109109 - Oct. 5, 1998 - 9:29 PM PDT
No way. Wow. Okay, then don't give me an explication. I'd prefer to read Chapter Six.

Name me a hero of the early battles against AIDS in Hollywood (I don't want Patton - Elizabeth Taylor/name me a saver of Private Ryan type).

35. CalGal - Oct. 5, 1998 - 9:40 PM PDT
Cellar,

I thought your mention of Christian Slater's mother, Mary Jo, was great. That she was a casting person who helped people with AIDS get a few days work for insurance purposes.

It's amazing how things so seemingly little can be so much more valuable than Barry Diller finally making his move in 1991. Although I'm glad he did.

36. patsyrolph - Oct. 5, 1998 - 9:47 PM PDT
Lest I start a rumor that Desi Arnez was gay, the person from the Lucy show's a writer.

37. cllrdr - Oct. 5, 1998 - 10:03 PM PDT
Niner, Cal Gal answered your question.

Patsy -- Gay RULE sitcom (see Chapter 11) In fact it's a good way to break it to your parents.

"Mom, Dad -- I want to write situation comedy."
"Oh Helen -- where did we go wrong?"
"Cool it Ralph -- the boy's gonna make millions."

38. cllrdr - Oct. 5, 1998 - 10:13 PM PDT
And now, I'm off into the arms of Morpheus.

No, he's not a trick I picked up at the Spike.

39. AdamSelene - Oct. 6, 1998 - 5:39 AM PDT
Congratulations cllrdr! (I guess we shouldn't start using your real name, right?) Is the book at Barnes & Nobles?

I don't know that I'll have much to say here, I'm not much of a gossip nor do I care much for the ins and outs (so to speak) of backdoor (so to speak) Hollywood, but I sincerely wish you great success - not (just) financially, but in your quest for normalization.

Besides, you're already normal in my book, guy.

40. Adrianne - Oct. 6, 1998 - 6:12 AM PDT

Cellar

I must admit that upon receiving your book (*9* days after I ordered it, AMAZON!) the first thing I did was look for a reference to a certain hollywood friend of mine. It wasn't there! I'm shocked - shocked I tell you - that the rumours of my pal and her proclivities weren't discussed.

Heh heh heh.

41. bubbaette - Oct. 6, 1998 - 6:32 AM PDT
109109

Though it's probably dated now, have you read "And the Band Played On" by Randy Shilts?

42. cllrdr - Oct. 6, 1998 - 6:52 AM PDT
Adam -- Barnes & Noble has the book, and when you get it -- as I hope you will -- you'll see that it isn't a giant list of "Who's Gay and Who's Not" -- as the tabs love to put it. Rather, it's an examination of the entire phenomenon. Specific people are dealt with solely in relation to the overall argument which has to do with what it means to be gay/lesbian as a public personality in a specified historical context. The main problem in dealing with this isuue as a Who is/Who isn't question is that gay/lesbian identity isn't a fixed category but a wildly unstable one whose meaning has changed radically over time. In fact, I would go so far as to say that being gay/lesbian in Hollywood even as much as five years ago is quite different from being gay/lesbian in Hollywood today. Had you approached Cary Grant and Randolph Scott back in the 30's and said "You're a couple of gay men," they would have looked at you as if you were a Martian. Had you done same to Tony Perkins and Tab Hunter in the 1950's, they would have turned white, barked "No!" and run like hell. Now go up to Rupert Everett and ask him. Go ahead. He won't bite. He'll say "Yes" and tell you about how he got as much money as Linda Evangelista for the Yves Saint-Laurent ad they just did together.

43. cllrdr - Oct. 6, 1998 - 6:59 AM PDT
Adam -- I think we should stick to Fray ettiquette and call each other by our handles.

bubbaette -- Randy Shilts crops up in my book in Chapter Eight. A very strange, very sad figure. He never found out who he really was.

44. AdamSelene - Oct. 6, 1998 - 7:15 AM PDT
Cary Grant was gay? Say it ain't so! The next think you know, you'll be telling me the Rock was gay...

*g*

45. Adrianne - Oct. 6, 1998 - 7:17 AM PDT
Adam

Cellar Dwellar's book is a rolling, rollicking joyride through the turmoils, tragedies and triumphs of homosexual Hollywood.

See! Cary Grant in skimpy bathing trunks.

Wonder! At Tom Cruise's prevarications.

Marvel! At those who had the guts to be "out" in the 1940's.



Cellar, you must SELL! SELL! SELL!

:0)

46. cllrdr - Oct. 6, 1998 - 7:20 AM PDT
Thank you dear. I'm doing my best.

47. MrSocko - Oct. 6, 1998 - 7:33 AM PDT
Adrianne: Perhaps cellar ought to change his name to seller?!?

48. Adrianne - Oct. 6, 1998 - 7:34 AM PDT
hahahahah!

Ahem. Are you ChuckL?

49. bubbaette - Oct. 6, 1998 - 7:52 AM PDT
Cllrdr

I read the book back in the late 80's and it made quite an impression on me. I was working for a member of Congress who was on Energy and Commerce and was following health issues at the time, and also had a brother in law in bio-medical research working on in-office AIDS tests. The amount of misinformation and outright lies floating around at that time was disheartening.

50. Jenerator - Oct. 6, 1998 - 8:59 AM PDT
Cllrdr,

What percentage of people you claim to be gay have passed away by the time this book was released?

51. cllrdr - Oct. 6, 1998 - 9:06 AM PDT
Sadly, bubbaette, Randy contributed a few himself-- beginning with "Patient Zero." It's one thing to track down the trick having sex with at "The Slot," and blame him for infecting you. It's quite another to go on and blame said trick for infecting the entire North American continent. And thus a new sort of closet -- one designed expressly for AIDS -- is born. Randy's campaign against the baths was particularly hypocritical. Instead of confronting his sexual tastes he accused everyone else of sharing them.
John Greyson's brilliant musical "Zero Patience" (1994) examines the whole "Patient Zero" phenomenon quite tellingly. It's available on home video in the better-stocked stores. One number from that film,"Culture of Certainty" is particularly relevant to what I outline in my Prologue re received attitudes towards same-sexuality.

"Let's all be Empiricists
Victors of the brain
Through our wit and brilliance
We can know the world again
We'll classify and label
Find the answers out
A culture of certainty
Will banish every doubt"

52. cllrdr - Oct. 6, 1998 - 9:07 AM PDT
Jenerator -- Why on earth would you care?

53. trouserPilot - Oct. 6, 1998 - 9:11 AM PDT
As I related in the "Suggestions" thread, I finally picked the book up on Sunday, but haven't had enough time to do more than read the prologue and Chapt. 1. ("Hypothalamus, mon amour" made me laugh out loud.) So far, I'm embarrassed to tell you how much I'm learning.

[BTW, cllr, in order to explain to my ESL South American boyfriend who you are and why I was buying your book, it really helped having a snapshot of you and elliot803 (he's met elliot). He was impressed -- I think moreso than by the picture of me with Bubba.... Hey, I'd like to post the cllrdr/elliot photo... if the parties agree.]

54. bubbaette - Oct. 6, 1998 - 9:14 AM PDT
Good point, Cllr. I wondered at the time how he could trace that patient zero stuff. The "Victors" of the brain speaks to me as well.

55. 109109 - Oct. 6, 1998 - 9:14 AM PDT
Bubber

I read Shilts' book as well and it had a profound impact on me. I can't speak to him, but it was wonderfully written and certainly raised my consciousness.

56. DaveCook - Oct. 6, 1998 - 9:15 AM PDT
So did Whitney Houston really pop Jodie Foster on the set of "The Accused." I met someone who knows someone who saw it happen, so it is probably true.

57. trouserPilot - Oct. 6, 1998 - 9:16 AM PDT
[In the meantime, cllrdr, I'll post a tantalizing detail: don't tell me this Hollywood icon is gay!!]

58. cllrdr - Oct. 6, 1998 - 10:31 AM PDT
Yes Trouser it's all too true BARNEY IS GAY. Well, duh! Those tiny fidgety hands, the body language -- come on. Major queen.

I'm all for publishing the picture of me and Elliot, btw.

Dave, I've heard the "Accused" set stories too. When did they ever get time to make a picture what with Jodie, Kelly and Whitney going at it in ceaselessly different combinations? But that's just gossip, and I NEVER gossip, so you didn't hear it from me.

bubbaette and 109 -- I've no doubt Randy's book raised your consciousness, and that of many others as well. I only wish Randy's *self* consciousness hit a higher level.

59. trouserPilot - Oct. 6, 1998 - 10:48 AM PDT
OK, cllrdr. I'll post it in the Religion thread.

60. cllrdr - Oct. 6, 1998 - 10:56 AM PDT
Perfect. Elliot and I make ideal icons for Jenerator to worship. A kind of tag-team Infant of Prague, if you get my drift.

61. elliot803 - Oct. 6, 1998 - 11:31 AM PDT
TP:

By all means post the pic of me and Cellar. As I recall, it's rather dark (damn those cheap Japanese cameras), but perhaps you've been able to work some magic with your multimedia skills.

Cellar, I can't tell you how much I get off on telling people that I know a real, published author! I'm behind the curve here, since I don't have your book yet, but I'll be ordering it from Amazon today.

62. cllrdr - Oct. 6, 1998 - 11:36 AM PDT
I think now's a good time to explain how I went about writing this book. I've been an L.A. based journalist since 1976, so I know a number of people personally who were quite willing to help. But every bit as important was the research made possible through the Margaret Herrick Library. You can find out just about everything that's ever been written about just about everyone through that library. And that's not to mention its Special Collections, where I found Cukor's letters. When I was going about looking for people, I always pre-interviewed them. I told them about my project -- what it was, and far more important what it wasn't ABOUT, and how I thought they might have something to contribute. But I didn't drag it out of them. No "third degree" was ever used. I knew certain people like Gavin Lambert and John Rechy would have plenty to say. Others were a complete surprise. Harry Clein, the publicist, for example, opened up to me in ways I never expected. What he had to say about his experience in dealing with an ex-lover stricken with AIDS covered oceans of territory. Lea DeLaria was enormous fun too. Rosie O'Donnell said yesterday that she would like to have her on the show. Oh brother! Rosie doesn't know what she's in for.

63. cllrdr - Oct. 6, 1998 - 11:46 AM PDT
My biggest break came through "Gods and Monsters." I had always planned to talk about James Whale, but I wasn't sure to what extent. I thought George Cukor would be my key "old Hollywood" figure, with Whale as an extra added attraction. Then I got to go onto the set of "Gods and Monsters" while it was being shot. Bonanza time. I got to talk with Ian McKellen, writer-director Bill Condon, executive producer (and the man I intend to marry) Clive Barker, associate producer and assistant director Sam Irvin, author Christopher Bram, and production advisor, writer-director and Whale friend Curtis Harrington. it all came pouring out. Suddenly Whale loomed as a far more central figure than I'd ever imagined. Talking to Gloria Stuart was an extra special plus. Now THAT'S how to be 88 years old! She is a delight.
So with Whale anchoring the past, and Rupert Everett ushering in the future, Rock Hudson and his ilk become transitional figures. As for the rest of the story, it's not about the stars, but the press.

I was intereviewed by phone by the "Boston Phoenix" this morning

64. spiffy - Oct. 6, 1998 - 11:53 AM PDT
Cllrdr--
I have an ongoing bet with someone that Keanu Reeves is gay. Please shed some light on this and I'll share my winnings with you!

65. cllrdr - Oct. 6, 1998 - 12:03 PM PDT
He wasn't the last time I looked, but with actors you never know. The marriage to David Geffen thing was, needless to say, insane. (I discuss it in "Chapter Seven.")But look, actors are self-obsessed and emotionally insecure. If they're even passably good-looking chances are they might have "done it" once or twice. But that doesn't make you gay in my book. Or even bisexual. Just "experimental." According to the most recent Noel Coward biography, Louis Hayward briefly tricked with Noel. Obviously he was looking to get a career boost. But even in Noel Coward's case you can't talk about his being gay "openly' or otherwise in the way you can talk about say Tom Hulce, or Dan Butler, or. . .well you get the picture.

66. elliot803 - Oct. 6, 1998 - 12:06 PM PDT
Cellar:

From a review of your book on Amazon.com's website:

"If you have more than a passing interest in this century's entertainment industry and how it impacts the lives of gay men and lesbians, you should have a look at this book. (Note to publisher: when you have an author this good-looking, for God's sake use a bigger picture of him on the cover!)"

67. CalGal - Oct. 6, 1998 - 12:07 PM PDT
Cellar,

I meant to post this last night and forgot. Now I don't have your book with me, so apologies for not quoting directly.

At the end of your introduction, you said that raging speculation about sexuality was a middle-class obsession. The poor have no time for such things; the rich can read Andre Gide and debate it at their leisure. And everyone else has the movies.

I wasn't sure how to interpret this. What I thought you were saying is that the movies define appropriate sexual behavior for the middle class. The irony being how much of those people employed in this industry that defines supposedly acceptable sexual behavior are gay.

But if that's not what you meant, could you elaborate? Hell. Elaborate even if that was what you meant.

68. trouserPilot - Oct. 6, 1998 - 12:22 PM PDT
Here's the pic of cllrdr and elliot803, keeping elliot's caveat in Message #61 in mind... (yeah, really good idea posing in front of a brightly sunlit picture window....)

Fray titans!

69. cllrdr - Oct. 6, 1998 - 12:35 PM PDT
Elliot -- I saw that Amazon post and have e-mailed the guy who wrote it.

CG-- It's not that the movies define appropriate behavior at all. Movies almost always show extremes. Stars of the studio era, and even to a large extent today, are aupposed to embody the middle-class norm in their "real" lives. I'm putting quotes around "real" in that such lives are confected by their publicists. Whenever a magazine takes you "inside" his/her home to show you the "real" Sadie Glutz, you're looking at a fiction. Even if it relates to reality it's fiction. Doug Lindeman's remarks about Sandra Bullock on page 148 are particularly a propos in this regard. We treat stars much the way small children play with dolls. They're not "role models," they're toys.

70. CalGal - Oct. 6, 1998 - 12:39 PM PDT
Cellar,

Got it.

And I thought the remarks about Sandra Bullock were very illuminating. Good story.

71. cllrdr - Oct. 6, 1998 - 12:42 PM PDT
Thanks for the pic, Trouser, but you're right. It's as dark as a Clint Eastwood movie.

72. cllrdr - Oct. 6, 1998 - 12:59 PM PDT
Correction to post #63. I was interviewed by the "Boston Herald." The "Phoenix" may be calling later. Also (gasp!) the "Christian Science Monitor."

73. Raskolnikov - Oct. 6, 1998 - 1:06 PM PDT
cllr: I got back from my vacation and was greeted with my copy of Entertainment Weekly, which had a "Gays in Hollywood" blurb on the cover. I thought to myself, could it be? and paged to the book review section. Very high profile review, which I imagine will help book sales considerably. Too bad the review couldn't have been a bit better. (I haven't gotten beyond chapter 1 yet, so I can't comment).

74. max012000 - Oct. 6, 1998 - 1:06 PM PDT
Cllrdr:

Can I get your book on electronic media?

75. elliot803 - Oct. 6, 1998 - 2:31 PM PDT
Cellar:

CNN and MSNBC just interrupted their regular programming with a "Breaking News" story about the reception of your book. Apparently, there have been riots in the Ukraine over the limited supplies of your book, and at a press conference this morning at the Beverly Hilton, Jack Valenti issued a fatwa against you! More to follow... (g)

76. cllrdr - Oct. 6, 1998 - 3:40 PM PDT
Max -- You can get it at Amazon.com

Elliot -- Well since Salman Rushdie's off the official shit list...

77. Adrianne - Oct. 6, 1998 - 3:50 PM PDT
Goodness, elliot and cellar are fabulous babes.

78. cllrdr - Oct. 6, 1998 - 3:52 PM PDT
Rask -- Try to catch up because, all of you who've been reading along at home are advised to move on to Chapter Two "Invisible City." Los Angeles is one of the strangest places in the world. Nominally it's a city, but in my experience it might best be described as a series of small towns linked together into one gigantic pretzel. The great attraction the place has held, until recently, was the opportunity that it offered the rich and famous to lead truly private lives. In say the 1930's you were gay and lived in New York or Chicago, you had to mind your back. You'd never know when those parties from your "private life" might intersect with your "official life." In L.A. things are a lot simpler. Everyone has to travel great distances to get anywhere. No one need be "in your face" in any way. So successful gay/lesbian angelinos settled down, bought the house, bought a pool, and invited their friends over. No muss, no fuss. What surprised me in my research was the *lack* of a gay network. Gays in the industry knew OF other gays in the industry, but everyone kept to their own backyard. Part of the tension between Cukor and Whale, for example, arose from the fact that they didn't move in the same social circles. I was surprised to discover notes to Cukor from Charles Walters (ourely professional compliments from one director regarding the work of another) simply because they really didn't hang out together at all --even though they both worked for MGM.

79. thomasd - Oct. 6, 1998 - 3:59 PM PDT
Hi, David Ehrenstein (cllrdr). Well, shet mah mouf! I did another 'Spudboy' thingie!

80. cllrdr - Oct. 6, 1998 - 4:05 PM PDT
In "Invisible City," Harry Hay and John Rechy represent gay L.A. street life as it was known in the "golden age" of the studio era, and the curious ways it intersected the "high life" of gay Hollywood. The best book on Harry is Stuart Timmons' "The Trouble With Harry Hay" (Alyson, 1990) Harry's own book "Radically Gay" (Beacon, 1996)is a collection of his writings and speeches edited by Will Roscoe. John Rechy needs no introduction to anyone who remembers the bombshell that "City of Night" set off when Grove Press published it back in 1963. But in a way he's *always* in need of an introduction as he's written a number of worthwhile books since. His most recent novel, "Our Lady of Babylon" (Arcade, 1996) was virtually ignored by the press, even though it represents a radical departure for him. I particularly reccomend it to Lady Chaos. Other rechy books of note include "Numbers," "Marilyn's Daughter," "The Miraculous Day of Amalia Gomez," and "The Sexual Outlaw: A Documentary." rechy has always been a problem for the high literary set. How, they wonder, can a hustler write? This was a problem for Alfred Chester -- a good writer, but a viscious queen. When he reviewed "City of Night" he wondered if Rechy even existed. By contrast Frank O'Hara (enraged by Chester's snobbery) defended the book, and its author. Rechy continues to be. . . Rechy. He teaches literature, continues to write, and is a very happy man indeed.

81. cllrdr - Oct. 6, 1998 - 4:08 PM PDT
Judge d! Nice to have you aboard.

Adrianne -- Compliments will get you everywhere.

82. thomasd - Oct. 6, 1998 - 4:11 PM PDT
Congratulations on your new book, cllrdr. I may order a copy.

83. cllrdr - Oct. 6, 1998 - 4:12 PM PDT
Please do. There's stuff on Clinton in it.

84. elliot803 - Oct. 6, 1998 - 4:14 PM PDT
I haven't read "City of Night" but I really enjoyed "Numbers." I read a few years ago that Rechy was short of money, and went back to hustling on Santa Monica Blvd (at the age of 40 or so) to make some cash. Kind of sad.

85. cllrdr - Oct. 6, 1998 - 4:20 PM PDT
Not true, Elliot. He's always been on his feet financially. He just went back to hustling because he liked it. Now he's settled down a bit. His boyfriend is a movie producer.

86. elliot803 - Oct. 6, 1998 - 4:31 PM PDT
Cellar:

Okay. You've piqued my interest in Rechy again. I think I'll order "City of Night" this evening when I order your book.

87. elliot803 - Oct. 6, 1998 - 4:33 PM PDT
Actually, I was also thinking of getting your book on Martin Scorsese.

Heavens, I'm already so backed up with my reading, but your books will go the top of the list.

88. elliot803 - Oct. 6, 1998 - 4:38 PM PDT
After initially being enormously skeptical about online shopping, I now love buying books that way. I may never buy a book from a real bookstore again (not like that luddite trouserpilot).

89. hashke - Oct. 6, 1998 - 4:40 PM PDT
cllrdr:

Hey, cllrdr, I'll buy your book if you buy my book, NAVAJO PLACE NAMES or APACHE, also available at amazon.com

Just kidding. Your work looks very interesting, so I'll probably buy it!

90. elliot803 - Oct. 6, 1998 - 4:44 PM PDT
And don't forget to add my book, "The Great Big Book of British Humour," to your shopping cart. Now in its 46th printing!

91. hashke - Oct. 6, 1998 - 4:46 PM PDT
And please pardon my egregiously shameless huckstering of my books on yr time!

92. arkymalarky - Oct. 6, 1998 - 4:49 PM PDT
Elliot(90),
Only if it has the Marsha's hemorrhoid skit in it!

The posts are wonderful, CD. I couldn't get to Little Rock last weekend but I'm going to pick it up in a couple of days or order from Amazon.

93. cllrdr - Oct. 6, 1998 - 5:16 PM PDT
Thanks Arky.

James Whale's masterpiece "Bride of Frankenstein" is currently unspooling on TCM.

94. trouserPilot - Oct. 6, 1998 - 5:37 PM PDT
elliot, you silly fool!
When you pick out a big shiny book with a picture of a closet on the jacket and the word "gay" in fairly large letters, then take it up to the cutest cashier, well.... you just never know what might happen! Try that at Amazon.

95. jexster - Oct. 6, 1998 - 5:41 PM PDT
Cllrdr,

Great to see the thread. Looking forward to your book.

96. patsyrolph - Oct. 6, 1998 - 6:06 PM PDT
Goodness, cllrdr, how tall ARE you? Well,,the link caption did say Titans.

97. patsyrolph - Oct. 6, 1998 - 6:12 PM PDT
Goodness, cllrdr, how tall ARE you? Well,,the link caption did say Titans.

98. cllrdr - Oct. 6, 1998 - 6:31 PM PDT
Six two and a half. But judging from the way the president of the National Rifle Association stoops these days, the future promises to be no picnic.

99. AdamSelene - Oct. 6, 1998 - 7:39 PM PDT
cllrdr,

Exact same height. Who woulda figured?
How much do you weigh?

100. cllrdr - Oct. 6, 1998 - 8:37 PM PDT
187