101. spiffy - Oct. 6, 1998 - 11:03 PM PDT
Cllrdr--
Thank you for informing me about Keanu Reeves. I lost the bet though. If I recall correctly, Mr. Reeves was on the cover of OUT magazine a short time ago?
102. cllrdr - Oct. 7, 1998 - 6:48 AM PDT
spiffy -- You've put your finger right on the problem that has plagued the gay press for close to a decade. They LOVE straight stars who have gay friends and associates, and support the expected causes -- like APLA. They ignore gays and lesbians who don't have big-time publicists on their payroll. "Out," for instance, has given up on hard news in favor of soft gooey features and cute boys smoochy on the cover. Now I love soft goo and smoochy boys as the next man but, can't we vary the menu just a tad for goodness sake? Where are the articles about interesting and/or important gays and lesbians in all sorts of other (ie. non-show business) walks of life? Where are the articles about worthwhile, intelligent people who have no sense of "style" whatsoever? Michelangelo Signorile has just, rather noisily, walked out of "Out." Maybe he and a few other like-minded souls can work towards putting together a publication that deals with life rather than (shudder!)"lifestyle." For the moment, gays and lesbians will have to depend on real journalism being executed by local (underpaid, understaffed) hand-out type publications, such as the Los Angeles-based "Frontiers." Such freebies have become my only source of information of gay and lesbian issues -- not only nationwide, but internationally as well. "Out" and "The Advocate" used to be the leaders. Now they're not even the followers.
103. HCaulfield - Oct. 7, 1998 - 9:45 AM PDT
How about this guy?
104. cllrdr - Oct. 7, 1998 - 11:34 AM PDT
Well now you're really getting with the program, Holden! Andy Tobias, for those of you who were either asleep or "not on the guest list" in the late sixties, wrote a book called "The Best Little Boy in the World."It was a classic out haute ourgois "coming out" story. The only problem with it was Tobias hadn't quite "come out." The book was credited to "John Reid." This year its sequel, "The Best Little Boy in the World Grows Up," was released to mixed reviews. It told us a good deal more about Tobias' life and what happened to him once he sent "John Reid" packing. he beame rich. he became successful. He got over being a sissy. He got to know David Geffen (we're all impressed) and Arianna Huffington. (Yikes!)
Andy Tobias makes a "special guest appearance" of sorts in my book, as David Geffen brings him up on page 198; blasting the "New York" magazine cover story about a party that he attended at Tobias' Fire Island digs. We'll deal with that more once we get to Chapter Seven "Going Public." Right now we're still in the midst of Chapter Two, "Invisible City."
105. marshame - Oct. 7, 1998 - 12:16 PM PDT
Cllrdr
Re Message #83: Clinton is a switch hitter? No way!
106. cllrdr - Oct. 7, 1998 - 12:26 PM PDT
Don't be ridiculous marsha. With those thighs? Clinton comes up in Chapter Nine "Moving and Shaking," as his speech at an AIDS benefit in Hollywood jump-started his run for the Presidency back in '92. His uncanny ability to tell pople what they want to hear is only rivalled by his skill at not delivering on his promises when the going gets rough. In other words it's "I have a vision of America and you're part of it," shortly followed by "Nice knowing you."
107. glendajean - Oct. 7, 1998 - 12:36 PM PDT
cllrdr -- I've been away and didn't know we're were doing your book. I bought it on my lunch hour. Am looking forward to reading it.
I appreciated your starting this discussion by talking about the complexity of dealing with gayness, and the need to explain.
As far as the quality of gay publications, I am not sure that there is the financial support for the kind you describe. Most of the magazine articles are shallow, providing little information, and way too cute. But I assume these editors and publishers are conforming their publications to what people will buy.
For most of my gay adult life, I've seen our world as a subculture, separate from society, one based on bars at first, but one that has expanded over time as more and more people came out of the closet.
But without giving a nod to A. Sullivan's "post-gay" pinings, I do wonder if this a time of transition, and if in the next century there will be less of gay life, as a distinctive group.
Frankly, I'm not sure anybody knows the answer to that, nor do I see a value (negative or positive) if it occurs. The life of a gay or lesbian person has changed so much in this century that change is probably the only thing we can count on -- no, we can always count on the resistance of those who see us as evil.
108. marshame - Oct. 7, 1998 - 12:46 PM PDT
Cllrdr
"Don't be ridiculous marsha. With those thighs?"
Oh, I thought we were talking about Bill! And don't even think about bringing up the ankles!!
109. cllrdr - Oct. 7, 1998 - 12:46 PM PDT
We are living in "interesting times," glendajean -- both for good and ill. I can't really grant your point on gay pub;ications, however. I wrote for "The Advocate" during its most political phase -- late 80's to early 90's. Readership skyrocketed. Straights started buying it when they realized we were covering stories hat went all over the map -- culturally and politically. But when that regime (Richard Rouilard at the helm) went south, the rag went back to its soft-sell, early 80's let's-have-another-daquari-approach. Readership, quite logically, shrunk once again. If you go into the average gay/lesbian bookstore it's perfectly obvious that there's a wealth of material to cover, and a public thirsty for knowlege. But what we've got with the "gay press," are magazines slavering after "mainstream" advertisers. Let's say the get a big-time auto ad. So -- fucking -- what? Is it a cure for AIDS? I think the current editor of "Out" thinks it would be.
110. glendajean - Oct. 7, 1998 - 3:11 PM PDT
I defer to your knowledge of what was happening at the Advocate, but in publishing in general, the move has been away from hard news, and is very personality driven. The gay mags use of stars is little different from how non-gay mags use them. The fact that there are so few openly gay "stars" means they go to the straight ones.
I can't say I like that, but I'm afraid that entertainment is the god of our time.
Anyway, I am very glad to get a copy of your book and am looking forward to your continued dialogue with readers.
111. CalGal - Oct. 7, 1998 - 3:16 PM PDT
Cellar,
I remember the Advocate during those times--I didn't read it much, but I worked in the City (87-92) and would occasionally pick it up.
I heard another friend bitching about it lately and was surprised. Your comments clear up yet another mystery for me. Thanks.
GJ--check mail.
112. elliot803 - Oct. 7, 1998 - 4:10 PM PDT
marshame, get your bony ass over to the religion thread and answer my questions.
113. wilkpaul - Oct. 7, 1998 - 4:18 PM PDT
Is Leonardo DiCaprio (or Leo for short) gay? I have heard different opinions on the subject.
114. elliot803 - Oct. 7, 1998 - 4:23 PM PDT
On the same theme, is Michael Medved gay? A friend of mine swears he's the biggest closet case, but I don't see it myself. But then, I didn't really think that George Michael was a nancy boy until The Incident, so my gaydar definitely needs a tune up.
115. wilkpaul - Oct. 7, 1998 - 4:26 PM PDT
Who is Michael Medved?
116. escarbro - Oct. 7, 1998 - 4:31 PM PDT
Hey! I just ordered OS from the Amazon and they had discounted the price to 17.95. Is this marketing or something else? (Never ordered from the Amazon before -- perhaps this is normal?)
Looking forward to reading it. Your conversations in The Fray leave me shivering with (wait for it) *anticipation*!
117. elliot803 - Oct. 7, 1998 - 4:33 PM PDT
Wilkpaul:
He's a movie critic (New York Post, I believe, and PBS's Sneak Previews) who also espouses various conservative social and political causes. He's been a guest host of Rush Limbaugh's show, and is an occasional guest on Pat Robertson's 700 Club. He's pretty anti-gay.
I met him once, back when he was more liberal, when he hosted a "Bad Movies" festival in London.
118. wilkpaul - Oct. 7, 1998 - 4:38 PM PDT
Eliott:
Thanks. I just did a quick search and found out basically the same info. P.S. Was that your picture that someone posted on this Thread?
If you are the one on the right, you are very handsome.
119. wilkpaul - Oct. 7, 1998 - 4:41 PM PDT
Oh well, have to go for now. Be back tomorrow.
120. cllrdr - Oct. 7, 1998 - 4:41 PM PDT
A gay Michael Medved?!?!?! Good grief, wasn't Roy Cohn bad enough? No Michael isn't gay.But I'm not so sure about his brother, Harry. (rim shot)
121. elliot803 - Oct. 7, 1998 - 4:46 PM PDT
wilkpaul:
Yes, I'm the one on the right. Cellar is the stud on the left. Not that you can really see either of us very well in that pic, thanks to my lousy photographic abilities.
122. cllrdr - Oct. 7, 1998 - 4:50 PM PDT
I've heard differing opinions on Leo too, wilkpaul. Such a delicate little slip of a thing isn't he? Well that's the way he looks on the outside. Up close he's a valley punk. I've seen him with his posse running around the Sunset 5, and they're general demeanor was as straight as all get out. Noisy, obnoxious little brats. Recently, however he's been observed in the company of a comely young gentleman of color. But that may well mean absolutely nothing. Or maybe he's "experimenting" or something. The point is, as you'll see when we get to the "Tom Cruise" chapter, the "real" Leonardo DiCaprio (whoever that may be) is as nothing compared what we may mnufacture as fantasy. So have at him wilkpaul -- con brio! Just remember that in "real life" he would have pushed you off that piano, climbed aboard himself, and let you go down with the ship.
123. cllrdr - Oct. 7, 1998 - 4:51 PM PDT
And besides, Wilkpaul, who needs Leo when you can have Elliot?
124. elliot803 - Oct. 7, 1998 - 4:53 PM PDT
Cellar: What about Oprah? Is she a lesbian?
125. elliot803 - Oct. 7, 1998 - 4:54 PM PDT
I love being a sex object! I just wish it happened more often.
126. cllrdr - Oct. 7, 1998 - 4:58 PM PDT
Oprah a lesbian? Have you had a good look at Steadman? Naw, she's just a world-class fag-hag.
And why, praytell, are you concerned about her? Don't you have enough on your plate what with Wilkpaul falling for you? Now I know why you've been hanging out in "Religion" so much! Just get him away from Jen and marsha and he's yours.
127. HCaulfield - Oct. 7, 1998 - 5:01 PM PDT
elliot -- It happens to me a couple nights a week. Then I wake up.
128. elliot803 - Oct. 7, 1998 - 5:04 PM PDT
Yeah, just wait till I get my hands on those vixens Marsha and Jenerator. We'll re-enact the Crystal/Alexis swimming pool fight from Dynasty.
I saw Steadman once on the street in Chicago, during my one and only visit to that fair city. He's certainly a fine figure of a man.
129. cllrdr - Oct. 7, 1998 - 5:08 PM PDT
First Wilkpaul, now Steadman -- is no man safe from you?
130. cllrdr - Oct. 7, 1998 - 5:21 PM PDT
And now before we get on with our reading -- a pop quiz!
1) Who said "heterosexuality is invented in discourse as that which is outside discourse"?
2)Who called Dr. Alfred C.Kinsey a homosexual?
3)Who is Danny Pintauro?
4)How many Americans tuned in to watch the "Puppy" episode?
5) Who is Rogers Brackett?
6) Vivien Leigh went out for drinks with Christopher Isherwood at what gay bar?
7) What was "the dark moment for L.A. law enforcement, and L.A. gays, and L.A. people of color"?
8) Who was Winifred Hudnut?
9) What did Will Geer and Rudi Gernreich have in common?
10) What L.A. bar reminds actor/publicist Mickey Cottrell of a Ross Hunter movie?
131. cllrdr - Oct. 7, 1998 - 5:22 PM PDT
This time tomorrow -- the results.
132. trouserPilot - Oct. 7, 1998 - 5:44 PM PDT
1) William Safire
2) Bobo, his houseboy
3) That's the name Danny Bonaduce uses when cruising downtown Phoenix
4) All of them
5) That should be, "Who rogers Brackett?" I'll never tell.
6) Greg's Blue Dot
7) The Hollywood premiere of "The Golden Child"
8) That's the name Eddie Murphy uses when cruising Sunset Blvd.
9) Matching nipple rings
10) Viper
How'd I do?
133. cllrdr - Oct. 7, 1998 - 6:44 PM PDT
Sorry Trouser, but #8 is wrong. Sunset is for women. Santa Monica is for men and pre-op trannies.
134. CalGal - Oct. 7, 1998 - 6:54 PM PDT
Cellar,
Are we allowed to answer for real, or not until tomorrow?
135. cllrdr - Oct. 7, 1998 - 7:09 PM PDT
Real answers please.
I was just letting Trouser be Trouser (though his answer to #7 isn't all that far off the mark.)
136. CalGal - Oct. 7, 1998 - 7:38 PM PDT
Well, here are the ones I knew, or knew right where I'd read it to go find in your book.
3. The kid in Who's the Boss--openly gay
4. 47 million
5. Producer who got James Dean his start--Dean was his "kept" man
6. Carousel
8. Married and "made" Rudolph Valentino--but she preferred women
9. Both were lovers of Harry Hay
10. Numbers
137. wexxford1 - Oct. 8, 1998 - 5:18 AM PDT
Here's much better Q&A for you folks !!!Which publisher puts out the most phony novels and non-fiction units ?
Which corporate PR master tells the book critics circle members which phony books to promote ? Which accounting firm certifies the phony sales of phony best sellers ? Which old railroad siding has the biggest rotting heap of phony "best-sellers" by women writers? Which name writer makes the most for doing the least ? Which agency sells the biggest heap of phony show biz biographies? Which agency sells the most heaps of ultra-phony business books ? Listen and learn you fraygrants. We got the corporate state runnin' the book bidniz and ain't not one terrified newspaper reportin' the fact . Oh well,the book fakery is brought to you by the same old gang, the ones who sold the morons the cold war scams. Read "Color of Truth" by Kai Bird for another Simon & Schuster opus on cold war scams.Now, some of the scammery can be told .Hyuh! Hyuh! Hyuh!
138. cllrdr - Oct. 8, 1998 - 6:50 AM PDT
Intersting questions, wexxford. Go straight (to mix a metaphor) to "The Media Elite in Crisis."
139. cllrdr - Oct. 8, 1998 - 8:59 AM PDT
Very good, CG. Now just get questions 1 and 2 answered. And there's more than one answer to question 8.
The quiz is still in progress. And reading of the Prologue and the first two Chapters is still ongoing, for those of you who've just got the book. But now we must move on to Chapter Three: "Nobody Said Anything."
140. cllrdr - Oct. 8, 1998 - 9:10 AM PDT
When I first began to put the idea for this book together I knew I was going to be writing about James Whale. What I wasn't sure of was how. Everything I'd read about Whale up to that point suggested that he was a singular figure -- well outside the "mainstream" of the studio era. What I discovered on closer examination was just the opposite. While Whale has traditionally been seen as a director of horror films whose career went south because he was "openly gay," he was, in point of fact much more than that. What I soon discovered was the trajectory of his career was brought about by factors other than those touching his "private life." Moreover, he was a far more central a figure in Hollywood history as a whole, than I had first imagined.
My big break was "Gods and Monsters" -- the film version of Christopher Bram's novel about Whale's last days, "Father of Frankenstein." I knew that many people had been interested in bringing this book to the screen -- including my friend Mark Rappaport. I'd never met Bill Condon, but had been aware of his work as a screenwriter on such films as "Strange Behavior" and "Strange Invaders." What I didn't know was what would greet me when I got on the set.
141. cllrdr - Oct. 8, 1998 - 9:22 AM PDT
Bill Condon is a fast-thinking, hard-working, erudite, but extremely practical gay man. So is his associate producer/asistant director (and writer-director in his own right) Sam Irvin. And so is novelist Christopher Bram (who was visiting the shoot.) And so is production advisor and horror film expert Robert Skal (also on the set.) And so is (be still my heart), babe-a-licious Executive producer Clive Barker. Every one of them had something interesting to say about James Whale. And so did the man who was playing Whale on screen -- Ian McKellen.
I had originally planned to use George Cukor as a central gay Hollywood figure, with Whale off to one side. But because of the "Gods and Monsters" shoot, Whale became more central in some ways than Cukor. Thanks to Gavin Lambert (whose novels such as "Inside Daisy Clover" and "Norman's Letter" and books on Hollywood lore, such as his recent "Nazimova," should be far more widely read than they are), I was able to connect Whale to other Gay Hollywood figures that had fascinated me over the years: Charles Laughton, Roger Edens, Charles Walters, Jack Cole, etc. Don Bachardy was likewise helpful in filling in the contextul details.
142. elliot803 - Oct. 8, 1998 - 9:41 AM PDT
Cellar:
Couldn't agree more about Clive Barker. What a studmuffin. I saw him on "Politically Correct" once laying into some fundamentalist Christian cow who was telling him that his relationship with his boyfriend was evil.
143. elliot803 - Oct. 8, 1998 - 9:44 AM PDT
Isn't Numbers that high-class hustler bar on Sunset? What's the connection with a Ross Hunter movie?
144. cllrdr - Oct. 8, 1998 - 9:50 AM PDT
Correctimento! Mickey Cottrell says it looks like a Ross Hunter movie. "Numbers" has moved to Santa Monica blvd, btw. People kept dropping in from the Sunset 5 thinking it as an ordinary gay bar. That cut into the business of the "regular customers."
145. trouserPilot - Oct. 8, 1998 - 10:10 AM PDT
[Elliot, if you had just traipsed into an ordinary bookstore instead of fussing with that "amazon" nonsense, you could be holding the lovely silver-and-lavender-dust-jacketed source of the answers to your questions right now!]
146. elliot803 - Oct. 8, 1998 - 10:12 AM PDT
TP: Too late, I've already ordered it from Amazon. But I have a friend whose birthday is coming up. Maybe I should get a copy for him from Barnes & Noble. And the cashier better be cute!
147. trouserPilot - Oct. 8, 1998 - 10:15 AM PDT
[I managed to read up through Chapt. 4 last night during the rain delay.]
148. cllrdr - Oct. 8, 1998 - 10:21 AM PDT
Ahead of the pack as usual, Trouser. We'll get to Tab Hunter over the weekend.
149. cllrdr - Oct. 8, 1998 - 1:20 PM PDT
This just in from my publicist:
"The View called about you today. I'll let you know what happens."
(Gasp!)
Meredith Viera, Starr Jones, Joy Behar, Debbie Whatsherface and....Me!
Gay heaven!
150. elliot803 - Oct. 8, 1998 - 1:27 PM PDT
Don't forget Babba Wawa. Our Cellar, a TV star! I'm excited just to know you!
151. cllrdr - Oct. 8, 1998 - 1:34 PM PDT
Thank you dear, but it's not a done deal yet. Keep your fingers crossed.
BTW, I woouldn't expect Baba to sit in on any discussion with me. I'd ask her about the guys Roy Cohn brought along with him on their "dates," and I don't think she'd take kindly to that.
152. elliot803 - Oct. 8, 1998 - 1:45 PM PDT
And after The View, who knows what mountains you may scale. Perhaps even the ultimate--Regis and Kathy Lee.
Seriously, good luck.
153. JaDeGoLd - Oct. 8, 1998 - 1:48 PM PDT
Jade and spouse are heading out to buy _Open Secret_ this evening.
I'd urge all to do likewise.
154. marshame - Oct. 8, 1998 - 1:53 PM PDT
Elliot
Re that picture of you and Cellrdr:
are you standing on a box?
155. cllrdr - Oct. 8, 1998 - 1:55 PM PDT
No marsha that's his actual height.
156. elliot803 - Oct. 8, 1998 - 1:58 PM PDT
marshame:
No. If there's a cruel joke hidden in your question, it's too subtle for me. Did you see the picture of me and Trouserpilot in Tijuana? In that pic, I was sitting on a box.
157. marshame - Oct. 8, 1998 - 1:59 PM PDT
So, if you're 5'2" and a half, that would make Elliot about 4'9"?
158. cllrdr - Oct. 8, 1998 - 2:01 PM PDT
Elliot, as I'm sure you know by now there's no cruelty in marsha -- only "love" via the divine inspiration of the Easter Bunny.
159. marshame - Oct. 8, 1998 - 2:02 PM PDT
Ell
I didn't see the picture of you and Trouser Pilot in Tijuana unless that was tP was dressed in a gigantic bunny costume (on Irv's page).
160. cllrdr - Oct. 8, 1998 - 2:06 PM PDT
That's why we worship him, marsha. You have your bunny, we have ours.
161. elliot803 - Oct. 8, 1998 - 2:13 PM PDT
marshame: I'm a little taller than that, but I *like* short guys. 4'9" is pushing it, though.
162. marshame - Oct. 8, 1998 - 2:28 PM PDT
Well that's nice, cuz I'm 4'9" wide.
163. cllrdr - Oct. 8, 1998 - 5:35 PM PDT
For those, like Trouser, who've been reading ahead of the pack and are well into Chapter Four, "It's A Scandal" detailed further reseach can be accomplished through Shake Books; 449 12th Street; #2-R; Brooklyn, N.Y. 11215. Their "Illustrated Price Guide to Scandal Magazines, 1952-66" is invaluable in and of itself. Though the guide selections of individual articles about stars and celebrities ranging from (a random selection) James Dean,to Anita Ekberg, to Judy Garland, to Elizabeth Taylor, toErroll Flynn to -- well you get the picture. The guide -- a wonderful gift for those hard-to-please, truly demented friends -- is a bargain at $6 bucks.
164. CalGal - Oct. 8, 1998 - 7:26 PM PDT
Cellar,
#1--I found a quote: "Homosexuality shocks less, but continues to be interesting; it is still at that stage of excitation where it provokes what might be called feats of discourse." Roland Barthes--1981, preface to Tricks. It was close enough that it distracted me and I stopped looking. (g)
#2--his biographer, James Jones.
#8--she was the lover of Nazimova?
165. cllrdr - Oct. 8, 1998 - 7:55 PM PDT
Nope -- That's not the answer to #1. Keep looking. (Wouldn't be much of a test without a brain teaser, would it?)
#2 - Correctimento!
#8 -- Among others but it's still not quite what I'm looking for.
166. CalGal - Oct. 8, 1998 - 8:22 PM PDT
#7--when Jack Webb met William Parker.
167. cllrdr - Oct. 8, 1998 - 8:41 PM PDT
Correctimento!
168. CalGal - Oct. 8, 1998 - 8:46 PM PDT
She was also Winifred Shaughnessy, the costume/set designer?
169. cllrdr - Oct. 8, 1998 - 8:50 PM PDT
Nope. Try again.
170. CalGal - Oct. 8, 1998 - 8:52 PM PDT
Well, she WAS Winifred Shaughnessy (but I confess I looked that up on the web-g).
171. cllrdr - Oct. 8, 1998 - 8:53 PM PDT
Not the name I'm looking for.
172. CalGal - Oct. 8, 1998 - 9:09 PM PDT
Cellar,
This is very weird and I don't think this is what you mean but the Rambova/Nazimova/Taylor connection is really weird.
173. CalGal - Oct. 8, 1998 - 9:12 PM PDT
Sigh.
I hate it when I rewrite and forget to check the first part of the sentence before I post.
But I figure you know what I mean.
And it's very irritating, because I've read the chapters over again and the real answer is probably staring me right in the face.
But I thought that connection was very cool, and if it's in your book I missed it so give me the damn page number!
Signed,
CalGal the excellent web searcher but terribly inattentive reader.
174. cllrdr - Oct. 8, 1998 - 9:29 PM PDT
Rambova at last!
Thanks for the William Desmond Taylor stuff btw. Never enough William Desmond Taylor-ology.
175. CalGal - Oct. 8, 1998 - 9:33 PM PDT
LOL!!!!!!!
I'm reading your post going what? Of course she was Natascha Rambova! I'd said that already.
So I go back to my first group of answers and see that I didn't *mention* that teeny little fact!
I knew she was Rambova from the start. Page 44, same place I got the part about Valentino.
That's too funny. But then, if I'd just mentioned that instead of being my usual careless self, I wouldn't have found the Taylor connection.
176. cllrdr - Oct. 8, 1998 - 9:40 PM PDT
I don't remember you mentioning her name. Did you? Oh well, I got this wonderful William Desmond Taylor link out of it. Thanks again.
I think I'm going to turn in now -- after dropping in at "Religion" to see if Vic and Boba have called off the dogs.
Tomorrow: Tab Hunter!
177. CalGal - Oct. 8, 1998 - 9:42 PM PDT
Cellar,
No, that's what's so funny. I didn't mention it. And so, the link.
Good night.
178. cllrdr - Oct. 9, 1998 - 10:25 AM PDT
Good Morning, all.
With Chapter Four "It's a Scandal!" we come to the beating heart of the book. For the Tab Hunter "pajama party" bust is a pivotal event in the history of Gay Hollywood. As this chapter (I hope) demonstrates this was far more "damaging" than idle gossip. The facts were there and spoke for themselves. What to do? Nothing. Tab Hunter's comments, quoted in the chapter, are all he has ever had to say about the incident. While his history is well known, Hunter has never "come out" a la Ellen. Am I "outing" him then? It's an interesting question because it centers on the way information is disseminated. I didn't go around peering in his bedroom window with a telephoto lens. I didn't have to. The police did that back in 1951. Yet the press remains fixated on Rock Hudson as THE key gay figure. Why? Because he was "found out" in death? Is a dea Rock worth more than a live Tab? Or is it a question of market viability? Tab Hunter's career is scarcely in overdrive. Yet he's still saleable in one way or another. Just the other night I saw a commercial for one of those "Golden Oldie" disc collections featuring Hunter. it flashed a photo of him in his prime as his hit, "Young Love," played in the background. So the qustion remains: By adressing the record (which is to say the arrest record), have I "outed" Tab Hunter? And if I have, what does that mean re journalistic standards?
179. Jenerator - Oct. 9, 1998 - 10:30 AM PDT
Riveting discussion.
180. cllrdr - Oct. 9, 1998 - 10:35 AM PDT
That's what I'm here for, Jen.
181. trouserPilot - Oct. 9, 1998 - 12:12 PM PDT
Loved him in "Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman."
And what was that bizarre story many years ago about him beating his dogs??? (If that's covered in a later chapter, don't spoil it for me!)
182. cllrdr - Oct. 9, 1998 - 12:38 PM PDT
I seem to remember something about someone beating their dog. Are you sure it was Tab? It's not covered in my book, at any rate. The only pets I deal with are gerbils.
183. cllrdr - Oct. 9, 1998 - 5:15 PM PDT
My boyfriend reminds me that there was indeed an allegation of dog beating levelled against Tab back in the late 70's. But it all blew over on closer examination as it wasn't true.
184. RustlerPike - Oct. 10, 1998 - 1:43 AM PDT
Dog beating! This gets weirder and weirder!
Who's Tab Hunter? And please, can someone tell me the story about Richard Gere and the gerbil? I'm the last one on earth who doesn't know the details.
185. mariagleason - Oct. 10, 1998 - 1:49 AM PDT
Cllr, my husband's family have been involved in the tech side of the business from the Astoria days. Your book and this discussion have been riveting indeed.
186. RustlerPike - Oct. 10, 1998 - 1:54 AM PDT
This is the best thread! The exchange about standing on the box is a classic!
cllrdr: #9 - they both have G-e-e-r in their last names.
187. cllrdr - Oct. 10, 1998 - 8:14 AM PDT
Hey Rustler, get my book. I go into the gerbil story in considerable -- though not quite Starr-esque -- detail. It's all in the "Tom Cruise" chapter (of course.)
You've never heard of Tab Hunter? Now I know how old you are, Rustler.
188. cllrdr - Oct. 10, 1998 - 1:48 PM PDT
mariagleason -- I'd love more info on the "tech side."
189. RustlerPike - Oct. 10, 1998 - 2:07 PM PDT
cllr:
Is it on sale in Israel?
190. cllrdr - Oct. 10, 1998 - 2:10 PM PDT
My agent is shopping for foreign sales right this minute, Rustler. Why do you think the Israelis would be especially interested?
191. RustlerPike - Oct. 10, 1998 - 2:13 PM PDT
No - I live in Israel. You had told me to buy a copy.
192. cllrdr - Oct. 10, 1998 - 2:15 PM PDT
Oh.
Well try Amazon.com. That's the best I can do at the moment.
193. RustlerPike - Oct. 10, 1998 - 2:18 PM PDT
Please just tell me who Tab Hunter is, and what the gerbil story is. I'll throw in a word about your book with a friend of mine who could do a review about it.
194. cllrdr - Oct. 10, 1998 - 2:35 PM PDT
Tab Hunter (ne Arthur Andrew Gelien) was a 50's era heartthrob under contract to Warner Bros. His credits include "Battle Cry" (1955), Damn Yankees (1958), "That Kind of Woman" (no, he didn't play the title role, 1959), and "The Pleasure of His Company" (1960). Since his salad days he has continued to work sporadically on stage and television ("The Tab Hunter Show," 1960) and in such off-beat independent fare as John Waters" "Polyester" (1981) and Paul Bartel's "Lust in the Dust" (1985) -- in both of these films he was co-starred with the 300 lb transvestite commedian, Divine.
The gerbil business dates from the early 90's when a story went 'round town (and in no time at all, round the country) that Richard Gere had checked himself into Cedars-Sinai to have a gerbil removed from his rectum. This was supposedly a new fad among gay men. The only trouble was this "fad" was fairly long-standing "urban legend" -- whose origins I outline in my book. Moreover, Gere isn't gay -- though he is a damn fine figure of a man if I do say so myself!
195. RustlerPike - Oct. 11, 1998 - 12:46 AM PDT
I knew the offer of a bribe would work!
Gosh-durn it, now I have to carry out my end of the bargain! We're in the middle of a holiday though... I'll get to it first thing Tuesday, cllrdr.
196. cllrdr - Oct. 11, 1998 - 7:18 AM PDT
Cool.
197. Super80 - Oct. 11, 1998 - 9:50 AM PDT
cllrdr-
I am soo bummed! I went to buy your book at my local Barnes and Noble, and they did't have. They offered to order it for me, but I told them, in my most indignant voice, that I would order it from Amazon.com. This does *not* resolve my need for immediate gratificaion.
198. cllrdr - Oct. 11, 1998 - 10:36 AM PDT
No, Super80. But you struck a match under Barnes & Noble's lazy tootsies.
199. escarbro - Oct. 11, 1998 - 3:30 PM PDT
Just started the book. (Received it from the Amazon in two days!) Obviously, the nasty reviewers didn't even read the first chapter! Schlock over substance -- Uber Alles.
Thank you for a very informed, literate work. I've learned more about the history of HS in the prologue and first chapter than I've read in several (supposedly serious) works.
Thank you Thank you Thank you.
Hugs and Muchas Smoochas!
200. cllrdr - Oct. 11, 1998 - 4:11 PM PDT
Right back at ya!