1202. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 26, 1999 - 9:11 AM PT
Dan:
See Message #1188.
1203. luthercalvin - Jan. 26, 1999 - 9:18 AM PT
"I might be persuaded to upload to notebook website a complete declension paradigm for a Greek adjective. But I doubt anybody would be interested."
Here's the paradigm for the adjective "good" in the Greek, agathos. It is a 2-1-2 adjective, so that its endings vary depending on the gender of the noun it is modifying, be it masculine, feminine or neuter, the case, and whether it is singular or plural.
Here's the masculine singular and plural forms:
agathos
agathou
agathoi (omega with subscripted iota)
agathov
agathe
agathoi
agathov (omega, not omicron)
agathois
agathous
agathoi
The cases are nominative, genitive, dative accusative and vocative, in that order.
1204. luthercalvin - Jan. 26, 1999 - 9:24 AM PT
The 2-1-2 refers to the declension of the noun which the adjective is modifying. If memory serves, there are five categories of adjectives in the Greek: 2-1-2, 3-3, 3-3-3, 3-1-3, and 2-2.
Occasionally, the adjectives will look identical, like agathoi in the plural nominative and vocative above. But context will almost always give you the clue to determine which case the adjective is actually in.
1205. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 26, 1999 - 9:27 AM PT
Snirv (Message #1201)
No, Latin only has five declensions. The sixth that you cite may be either (1) alternate forms in the fifth; or (2) Greek declensions for Greek names and loanwords in Latin.
1206. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 26, 1999 - 9:31 AM PT
OK, now to one of my favorites. Finnish has the most elaborate case system I've come across. According to Michael Branch in Comrie (p. 598), there are 85 declension classes.
I'm not going into all the variations, but here are the case systems for two words, mies 'man' and 'kirja 'book.' Note the vowel harmony (one of the most interesting features of Finnish).
Case.....Singular/Plural
N.....mies/miehet — kirja/kirjat
A.....miehen/miehet — kirjan/kirjat
G.....miehen/miesten — kirjan/kirjojen
Essive.....miehanä/miehinä — kirjana/kirjoina
Partitive.....miestä/miehiä — kirjaa/kirjoja
Translative.....mieheksi/ miehiksi — kirjaksi/kirjoiksi
Inessive.....miehessä/miehissä — kirjassa/kirjoissa
Elative.....miehestä/miehistä — kirjasta/kirjoista
Illative.....mieheen/miehiin — kirjaan/kirjoihin
Adessive.....miehellä/miehillä — kirjalla/kirjoilla
Ab.....mieheltä/miehiltä — kirjalta/kirjoilta
Allative.....miehelle/miehille — kirjalle/kirjoille
Instructive.....miehin/miehin — kirjoin/kirjoin
Comitative.....miehineen/miehineen — kirjoineen/kirjoineen
Abessive.....miehettä/miehittä — kirjatta/kirjoitta
1207. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 26, 1999 - 9:35 AM PT
luthercalvin:
Thank you. I wasn't able to do that, because I'm illiterate in Greek.
1208. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 26, 1999 - 9:35 AM PT
PE Message #1205:
I'm just quoting from the book. R.G.G. Coleman of the Univeristy of Cambridege wrote the chapter on Latin, and he states "The noun morphology was organized in six paradigms, exemplified from Latin in the chart given opposite." Then he gives a chart with 5 paradigms. Go figure. Perhaps he means that proto-IE had 6 paradigms, but he isn't very clear about it.
1209. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 26, 1999 - 9:49 AM PT
A quick guide to some of the meanings of the cases from the Finnish chart:
Essive - a state of being
Partitive - a part of something
Translative - from (one person to another)
Inessive - in
Elative - from (outside)
Illative - into
Adessive - at or near
Ablative - from
Allative - to/towards
Instructive - same as instrumental (I have no idea why Finnish linguistics uses "Instructive')
Comitative - Accompanied by
Abessive - without
1210. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 26, 1999 - 9:54 AM PT
The last language I want to look at is Tamil. I plan to give a bit of historical detail as well before looking at it in a bit more depth. But it's nearly 2:00 in the morning, and I think I'll save it for my morning. This entire exercise actually grew out of my agreeing to present a bit about Tamil.
1211. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 26, 1999 - 9:55 AM PT
The last language I want to look at is Tamil. I plan to give a bit of historical detail as well before looking at it in a bit more depth. But it's nearly 2:00 in the morning, and I think I'll save it for my morning. This entire exercise actually grew out of my agreeing to present a bit about Tamil.
1212. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 26, 1999 - 9:59 AM PT
Sorry about the double post. It's late and my internet connection is not very dependable.
1213. DanDillon - Jan. 26, 1999 - 10:05 AM PT
I would appreciate everyone citing their sources, not just Irv who, yes, has been doing so from the beginning.
Finnish certainly does have the most extensive case system of any language I've come across as well. Reading a post like Message #1206 makes me very grateful that English is not nearly (nor ever was) so intricate in this regard. Then again, case systems rarely constitute the things that normal people give their thoughts to. Alas, we go on spoiling ourselves.
1214. DanDillon - Jan. 26, 1999 - 10:14 AM PT
It is interesting to note that the all of words we use to identify each case in a give system are Latinate. This doubtless sheds a great deal of light on who we can point the finger at for such synthetic shenanigans.
Just a bit of comic relief, if you will.
1215. luthercalvin - Jan. 26, 1999 - 10:17 AM PT
IrvingSnodgrass, your #1207.
No problem! Adjectives are actually quite easy in Greek, as are nouns. It is the verb systems that are entirely confusing and vary greatly depending on voice, mood, aspect, number and person.
So, for example, you can have the verb agapao (omega, not omicron), which is the lexical form of this contract verb. The lexical form of this particular verb is only an aide and actually doesn't even exist in "real" time.
Some examples of the changes that occur in this verb based on the voice (all moods are indicative, all persons are first, and all numbers are singular):
future active indicative first person singular
agapeso (eta, not epsilon, omega, not omicron)
imperfect
egapomev (first eta, omega, not omicron, last epsilon)
In the imperfect, the alpha augments into eta.
second aorist active
egapesa (eta again at front of verb, and also for the second e)
future passive
agapethesomai (e for both is eta again)
This is just a small sampling of the many changes that verbs can undergo in Greek. The endings again are different for each person and number (six persons, two numbers). But, you can normally follow the verb's root and recognize it.
Mastering adjectives and nouns is easy in the Greek in comparison to the verb systems!
1216. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 26, 1999 - 10:21 AM PT
LutherCalvin has beaten me to it, but I've already uploaded it, so here is the full paradigm of the Greek adjective kalos.
I agree, the verbal inflections in classical Greek are staggering and infuriating.
1217. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 26, 1999 - 11:29 AM PT
Dillon (Message #1213)
I've already cited my source for Middle English in Message #1145 and for Pashto in Message #1199. My sources for the earlier comments on Old English, Middle High German and Classical Arabic are:
W. M. Thackston, An Introduction to Koranic and Classical Arabic.
M.O'C. Walshe, A Middle High German Reader.
Robert E. Diamond, Old English Grammar and Reader
Sweet's Anglo-Saxon Primer
All else has been from memory.
1218. luthercalvin - Jan. 26, 1999 - 1:43 PM PT
"I agree, the verbal inflections in classical Greek are staggering and infuriating."
You said it! On top of all the different endings, some verbs augment, some reduplicate, some have tense formatives and vowel elongation, some have tense formatives and no elongation, some drastically alter their verbal stem in one voice but not in another, some drop consonants, some undergo vowel contraction, some undergo "consonantal compensation," and so on, and so on.
It is maddening!!
1219. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 26, 1999 - 3:47 PM PT
Well, LutherCalvin's obvious distraction by classical Greek verbal inflections has inspired me to compose a quick paradigm of the contracted verb "luein" (to release, liberate) JUST for the first person singular:
1220. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 26, 1999 - 3:48 PM PT
present indicative active luo
pres. ind. middle/passive luomai
pres. optative act. luoimi
pres. opt. mid./pass. luoimen
pres. subjunctive act. luo
pres. subj. mid./pass. luomai
imperfect ind. act. eluon
imp. ind. mid./pass. eluomen
aorist subj. pass. lutho
future ind. act. luso
fut. ind. mid. lusomai
fut. ind. pass. luthesomai
fut. opt. act. lusoimi
fut. opt. mid. lusoimen
fut. opt. pass. luthesoimen
1221. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 26, 1999 - 3:49 PM PT
aorist ind. act. elusa
aor. ind. mid. elusamen
aor. ind. pass. eluthen
aor. opt. act. lusaimi
aor. opt. mid. lusaimen
aor. opt. pass. lutheien
aor. subj. act. luso
aor. subj. mid. lusomai
aor. subj. pass. lutho
perfect ind. act. leluka
perf. ind. mid./pass. lelumai
perf. opt. act. lelukos eine
perf. opt. mid./pass. lelumenos eine
perf. subj. act. leluko / lelukos o
perf. subj. mid./pass. lelumenos o
pluperfect ind. act. eleluke
plup. ind. mid./pass. &nb
1222. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 26, 1999 - 3:50 PM PT
plup. ind. mid./pass. elelumen
1223. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 26, 1999 - 3:51 PM PT
Conjugations of participles, infinitives and imperatives in the various tenses times three voices times three numbers omitted for the sake of brevity. Ancient Greek is a synthetic language run amok.
The relative orderliness above does nothing to convey the flavour of the chaos of irregularities in the verbal forms of classical Greek. Some verbs are thematic or athematic; contracted or uncontracted; have either first aorist endings or second aorist endings; some verbs have "vowel stems" while others have "consonant stems"; some tenses have alternate forms; etc. etc. These are all variables which change how one conjugates and which typically frustrate one's attempts to delude oneself into thinking things aren't so bad.
1224. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 26, 1999 - 3:57 PM PT
In Latin, one need only remember the four principal parts of the verb and then the large conjugation paradigm is in easy reach -- e.g., the first person singular present indicative active, the infinitive, the first person singular perfect indicative active, and the supine. And for most verbs, these sets of four principal parts are predictable the one from the other, and the irregularities tend to fall in categories. In Greek, by contrast, you must learn six principal parts of every verb, and more likely than not any set contains some little irregularity which defies any pattern.
1225. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 26, 1999 - 4:00 PM PT
LutherCalvin
I gather from your moniker that you must own Wesley Perschbacher's edition of the Greek New Testament. That book glosses every single verb in the NT with a description of its inflection.
1226. alistairconnor - Jan. 26, 1999 - 5:33 PM PT
...but you're all getting off the subject here.
Irv, there is unfinished business in your Austric series starting at Message #1095. In particular, the whole damn Central-Eastern branch of the Malayo-Polynesian sub-family, which accounts for half the languages of the Austric phylum. I imagine you have lots of interesting things to say about this group. One can speculate that the huge number of closely-related languages is due to the nature of the turf (so to speak), i.e. small isolated populations whose languages would differentiate rapidly due to isolation after initial colonisation (like the bird speciation that Darwin studied in the Galapagos).
Questions:
How do you get 500 plus languages? For example, in this taxonomy, are Hawaiian, Tahitian and New Zealand Maori all languages, or dialects of one language? (Danger: Language/Dialect can of worms ahead).
Do you have a tree for the Central-Eastern branch? This is missing from your link in Message #1102.
Also : can you shed any more light on the hypothetical Taiwanese origin of the Austric phylum? Any studies on anthropometric evidence, belief systems or whatever? Speculations about dates or migration paths? Evidence of related languages any closer than Laos? None in China, Korea etc?
And having said that, will you all kindly get out of my head? I've got work to do.
1227. luthercalvin - Jan. 26, 1999 - 5:38 PM PT
I am familiar with Perschbacher (a Moody Bible prof) and his works, but I have viewed them more as practical works than technical ones. In other words, they don't get into the real nitty-gritty as much as they are interested in a quicker approach to Koine. Having said that, I am in no way knocking them or his expertise!!
My copy of the Greek New Testament is a product of the Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft and United Bible Societies, fourth revised edition. The text is based on the 26th edition of the Novum Testamentum Graece (Nestle-Aland)
What I most like about my copy is that it has evaluations of evidence for certain texts on which the translation committee(s) differed. There is a selection of "witnesses" from manuscripts, versions, and quotations from the Church Fathers, as well as a ranking of the decision made:
A indicates that the text is certain
B indicates that the text is almost certain
C indicates that the Committee had difficulty in deciding which variant to place in the text
D indicates that the Committee had great difficulty in arriving at a decision (very rarely is D used)
In any good English translation, the decisions of difficulty are noted with the alternate given usually in the footnotes.
In all, there are 1483 passages where the above evaluation system was used.
The list of papyri, uncials, and minuscules is exhaustive, and there are numerous lectionaries referenced as well. The list of Greek Church Fathers is about 116 and the list of Latin Church Fathers 60 strong.
This little compact volume is incredible, and it gives one a taste of the awesome and overwhelming feeling one must have when attempting to translate the Greek New Testament.
In essence, this book is a miniature Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich Lexicon, but I would recommend the "full" work of BAGD for any serious student of Greek.
1228. luthercalvin - Jan. 26, 1999 - 5:47 PM PT
I should point out that my comments about Perschbacher are with respect to his works such as
New Testament Greek Syntax: An Illustrated Manual
Refresh Your Greek: Greek New Testament with Helps
The latter sounds basic, but it goes for about $80 retail!
I also want to add before I get too far afield from the topic that Greek is an enjoyable language to learn. Certainly it is hectic at times, but at least you don't have to SPEAK it!! If I understand correctly, we aren't even sure how it was spoken. It uses accents (grave, acute and circumflex) and Koine was a tonal language if I recall correctly. In other words, the inflection in ones voice was also important in the use of the language. For example, with a circumflex (~) the voice would move as the accent looks: first the voice would go up, then down, and all on that one syllable! For a grave (\) the voice would drop, and for an acute (/) it would rise up. It must have been one interesting language to hear! But for us today, much of this is entirely lost.
It is easier, then, to learn than some "spoken" languages, as far as I am concerned. One of the most difficult things to handle in learning a new language, from my experience, has been to HEAR the language spoken by a native speaker. With Koine, one doesn't ever have to worry about that.
1229. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 26, 1999 - 5:54 PM PT
Alistair:
As a matter of fact, I've been holding off on continuing the look at Austronesian until we complete this pleasant diversion into Inflection in languages of the world. I have all the charts prepared (including some very interesting ones for the Central-Eastern group).
I don't have much historical information though. My info is chiefly linguistic, though I will be able to answer *some* of your questions.
1230. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 26, 1999 - 6:02 PM PT
LutherCalvin
From the Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft, I have got copies of the Septuagint and the Latin Vulgate.
By the way, I am hardly a "serious student of Greek". I'm just a bounder who studied Greek at school in his teens -- though it was for many years and I even suffered through a year of composition. So the Greek New Testament from the Moody Press -- laughable as it is for a serious Bible scholar -- is good enough for this permanent novice & amateur.
Furthermore, my interest is not at all in the Koine, but, if anything, Archaic and Attic, for that I was 90% of what we read.
"If I understand correctly, we aren't even sure how it was spoken."
On the contrary. Check out W. S. Allen, "Vox Graeca: A Guide to the Pronunciation of Classical Greek". The so-called "restored pronunciation" would shock you, proper intonation and all. Allen also wrote a Latin version of the book.
"With Koine, one doesn't ever have to worry about [how it sounds]."
Again, on the contrary, it matters terribly if the topic is poetry, and the post-classical Hellenistic period offers lots of poetry.
1231. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 26, 1999 - 7:27 PM PT
A BRIEF LOOK AT TAMIL
Tamil is the best known of the Dravidian languages, although Telugu has more speakers. The name of the language is actually pronounced "Tamir," with a retroflex "r" sound, much as the average midwestern American would pronounce a word-final "r." Who knows where the "l" came from in the English spelling... possibly from Brits who had never heard a word-final "r" sound.
[Most of the information here comes from the article by Sanford B. Steever of the Central Indian Institute of Languages in Comrie. Other information comes from my own personal experience.]
Tamil is a member of the South Dravidian branch of the Dravidian family (along with its closely related sister language Malayalam). Tamil has been spoken in southern India and northeastern Sri Lanka from prehistoric times. The earliest written records of Tamil date from 200 BC. There is a vast and varied literature spanning 2000 years in the language, including a grammatical tradition separate from Sanskrit grammarians. The two main texts in this tradition are the tolkappiyam (c. 200 BC) and naNNul (c. 1000 AD). The history of the language is divided into three distinct stages: Ancient Tamil (200 BC to 700 AD), Medieval Tamil (700 AD to 1500 AD), and Modern Tamil (1500 Ad to present). The western dialects of Tamil broke off between 800-1000 AD to form Malayalam.
Ancient Tamil had two tenses (past and present). Medieval and Modern Tamil also have a future tense. In many other areas (in particular subject-verb agreement forms), Ancient Tamil is much more complex.
During the Chola Empire (850-1250 AD), Tamil traveled beyond southern India to kingdoms in Burma, Cambodia, Sumatra and Java, and had some influence on these languages, through loan words and writing systems (the writing systems for a number of these languages are still in use today).
[continued]
1232. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 26, 1999 - 7:33 PM PT
At present, there are six regional dialects of Tamil, with the Sri Lankan dialect being the most conservative.
There are also social dialects relating to caste (the Brahmin word for house is “am”; for non-Brahmins, the word is “vitu”), as well as diglossia (high and low forms of many words, chiefly relating to the difference between the written and the spoken language. All speakers of Tamil, even illiterates, have command of both varieties).
The following note of interest is from Steever: “The Pure Tamil Movement (taNit tamir iyakkam) of the 1900s, a cultural branch of the politically oriented Dravidian movement, attempted to purge Tamil of its foreign elements, especially its Sanskritic vocabulary. The first part of the legacy of this movement is the intense loyalty that Tamils feel for their language; the second is that the scientific and bureaucratic gobbledygook is ultra-Tamil, not Sanskrit as in other Indi[an] languages."
The standard dialect for Tamil is the high non-Brahmin dialect of the Central dialect, including the cities of Tanjore, Tirichirapalli and Madurai. The descriptions below are based on this dialect.
Tamil is one of India's 14 national languages. It is the first official language of Tamil Nadu, with English being the second. Tamil also has national language status in Sri Lanka and Singapore. Because of the strong attachment to Tamil in Tamil Nadu, knowledge of Hindi is very rare. Speakers of Hindi in Tamil Nadu number fewer than 5% of the population. The situation is similar throughout southern India.
The number of speakers of Tamil varies widely between different sources, between 50 and 70 million. I'll try to find a more definite number.
Next: Tamil phonology and morphology (including the case system, which started all this).
1233. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 26, 1999 - 7:39 PM PT
By the way, I have uploaded two short recordings of the first line of Homer's Odyssey, read in the "restored pronunciation". The consonants and vowels are pronounced quite differently than indicated in the textbooks but are consistent with the Allen volume mentioned earlier. More importantly, the stress, duration of vowels, and musical pitch of the classical Greek have been observed.
recited.
chanted.
"Andra moi ennepe Mousa polutropon hos mala polla..."
"Tell me, O Muse, of the wily man, who full many (ways wandered after he had sacked the sacred citatal of Troy)."
[I will also later upload Classical Latin poetry recorded in the "restored pronunciation", which should surprise more people than Greek since people know some Latin.]
1234. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 26, 1999 - 8:02 PM PT
Well, here is the aforementioned recording of a classical Latin poem, read in the "restored pronunciation", this time by Robert Sonkowsky of the University of Minnesota. It's really obvious that this terrible reader is some sort of Anglphone monoglot, what with his exaggerated Rs and totally inept nasals. Nonetheless, for most people who haven't heard it, it should sound exotic and surprising.
Recorded are the first seven lines of Catullus I: "Dedication to Cornelius". [Please note: this is a much larger file than the previous two.]
Cui dono lepidum novum libellum
arida modo pumice expolitum?
Cornli tibi: namque tu solebas
meas esse aliquid putare nugas
iam tum cum ausus es unus Italorum
omne aevum tribus explicare cartis
doctis Iuppiter et laboriosis.
1235. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 26, 1999 - 8:28 PM PT
Didn't Marzipranks say he knows some Marathi and Konkani? If so, why doesn't he contribute to our discussion of grammatical cases, just to round it out?
1236. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 26, 1999 - 8:53 PM PT
Good idea. I also have some info on Bengali here. We can get a good picture of Indian languages. Marj? Your turn.
From M.H. Klaiman's article in Comrie:
"Morphology in Modern Bengali is non-existant for adjectives, minimal for nouns and very productive for verbs. Loss or reduction of the earlier Indo-Aryan adjective declension parameters (gender, case, number) is fairly typical of modern Indo-Aryan languages; hence the absence of adjectival morphology in Modern Bengali is not surprising. Bengali differs from its sisters, however, in lacking certain characteristic nominal categories. The early Indo-Aryan category of gender persists in most of the modern languages, with the richest (three-gender) systems still to be found in some of the western languages, such as Marathi. Early stages of the Magadhan languages (eg, Oriya, Assamese and Bengali) also show evidence of a gender system. However, the category is no longer productive in any of the modern Magadhan languages.
"The early Indo-Aryan system of three number categories has been reduced in Modern Bengali to a singular/plural distinction... The elaborate case system of early Indo-Aryan has also been reduced in Modern Bengali as it has in most modern Indo-Aryan languages."
Bengali Nominal Declension (singular ... plural)
Nominative Ø ... -ra/-era; -gulo
Objective -ke ... -der(ke)/-eder(ke); -guloke
Genitive -r/-er ... -der/-eder; -gulor
Locative/Instrumental -te/-e/-ete ... -gulote
The forms -gulo/-guloke/-gulor/-gulote are used with nouns with both animate and inanimate referents, while the other forms are used only with animate nouns.
The other forms are phonlogical variants.
1237. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 26, 1999 - 9:34 PM PT
And now, back to Tamil.
One of the most noticeable and interesting features of Tamil is its phonology. One need not understand the language to immediately be able to detect when it is spoken... no language sounds like Tamil.
The consonant system, consisting of a number of liquids plus some unusual retroflex sounds in a limited number of consonants gives Tamil this unique character.
Another interesting feature is that there are a high number of borrowed phonemes in Tamil, which are used in writing and in careful speech by educated speakers, but are ignored in most Tamil speech. The borrowed sounds are b,d, (d), j, g, s, sh (sorry, I can't use the linguistic symbol), f and h.
Throughout this explanation, I will put retroflex consonants in parentheses (as with "(d)" above). Retroflex sounds are made by flipping the tongue backwards, something like the American “r” sound.
The 16 native consonant phonemes of Tamil are as follows:
stops (all voiceless*):
p, t, (t), ch, k
Nasals:
m, n, (n), ñ
liquids:
R (stop), l, (l), r (tap), (r)
other:
v, y
This is a small number of consonants for a language. The distribution of the limited number of consonants is what makes Tamil sound different: 5 voiceless stops, 4 nasals, 5 liquids, with four retroflex sounds.
Tamil has a classic 10 vowel system, consisting of long and short i, e, a, o, and u. There's nothing unusual at all about Tamil vowels.
* Stops are voiced intervocalically, but this is an allophonic process, and is not phonemic. There are a dozen other sound changes which occur allophonically which produce nasalized vowels, vowel lowering, palatalization, glide insertion, etc. It all makes for a very difficult language to learn to speak (believe me, I've tried).
1238. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 26, 1999 - 9:43 PM PT
Before I move on to the morphology of Tamil, a couple of notes:
• I think I've found a reputable figure for Tamil speakers (in Ethnologue): 62 million + 7 million L2 speakers. Numbers for other major Dravidian languages: Telugu 73 million, Malayalam 34 million, Kannada 33,6630,000 (plus over 10 million L2 speakers).
• The Tamil writing system is very simple and easy to learn. Letters are not joined as in other Indian systems, and each sound unit (consonant alone, consonant+vowel or vowel alone) stands separately. There are about 270 graphemes in Tamil, but they are systematic and can be learned in a few hours. The writing is quite unique, and is filled with curlicues.
1239. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 26, 1999 - 9:43 PM PT
So many Indo-Aryan languages have we pinned down with respect to case systems?
Urdu/Hindi
Panjabi
Sanskrit
Tamil
Bengali
Is that all? We need some info on Marathi, certainly a major subcon language.
Oh, I forgot, the very brief info I posted about Panjabi earlier, comes from Shaukat Shahid, "A Grammar of Western Panjabi and a Word List".
1240. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 26, 1999 - 9:46 PM PT
PE:
Yes, I think that's it. Hindi/Urdu and Panjabi from your notes, plus Sanskrit and Bengali from my source (plus confirmation of your notes on Hindi/Urdu). But let me note that Tamil is not an Indo-Aryan language, merely an Indian one.
1241. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 26, 1999 - 9:47 PM PT
Snirv: As a linguist, what do you think of those Greek and Latin "restored pronunciations"? You should at least be able to comment on the Latin.
1242. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 26, 1999 - 9:48 PM PT
errata (Message #1239)
Substitute "subcon" for "Indo-Aryan", for Tamil is not Indo-Aryan.
1243. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 26, 1999 - 10:02 PM PT
PE:
I am fascinated by restored pronunciations in any language (I have even read Old and Middle English on Indonesian radio in restored pronunciations). I will give your examples a listen when I finish my Tamil posts.
1244. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 26, 1999 - 10:10 PM PT
Because Tamil is a highly synthetic (agglutinative) language, there are only two parts of speech: the noun and the verb. As my source puts it, “The so-called indeclinables, including interjections, seem to be variously nouns or verbs.”
Also from my source: “The morphology is agglutinating and exclusively suffixal: the inflections are marked by suffixes joined to the lexical base.... Nouns are inflected for person, case, number and gender.... There are two numbers: singular and plural.... Tamil gender is based on the natural gender of a noun's referent, not on conventionally ascribed grammatical gender.”
There are two genders, corresponding roughly to human and non-human, called “rational” (uyartinai) and “irrational” (ahRinai). Here's a wonderful quote from my source:
“Nouns referring to deities and men are classified as rational; in some dialects, women are classified as rational, in others as irrational. (Children and animals are normally classified as irrational.)”
Ooh, wait till the Indian feminists get hold of that! Evidently, the use of rational and irrational gender is a great way to insult someone in Tamil.
Modern standard Tamil has eight cases (presented below). In addition to the eight cases, there are postpositions derived from independent nouns or non-finite verbs.
The declension of a Tamil Noun: puu ‘flower' (I am using double vowels to denote a long vowel)
Singular
Oblique Stem puu(v)-
N puu
A puuv-ai
D puuv-ukku
Sociative puuv-oo(t)u (retroflex t)
G puuv-a(t)aiya
I puuv-aal
L puuv-il
Ab puuv-iliruntu
[continued]
1245. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 26, 1999 - 10:11 PM PT
Plural
N puukka(l) (retroflex l)
A puukka(l)
D puukka(l)-ai
S puukka(l)-ukku
G puukka(l)-oo(t)u
I puukka(l)-u(t)aiya
I puukka(l)-aal
L puukka(l)-il
Ab puukka(l)-iliruntu
To give an example of how productive these forms are:
Naan Amerikaviliruntu “I come from America”
And that concludes my look at Tamil. I'll be back later to continue my look at Austronesian.
1246. CalGal - Jan. 26, 1999 - 11:28 PM PT
Could someone explain the difference between pidgin and creole? I can think of examples for each, but I'm not sure what the technical definitions are.
And translation of terms in Message #1132? +power, -power, etc.
1247. RustlerPike - Jan. 27, 1999 - 12:52 AM PT
CalGal:
Pidgins are the birds that kids and old people feed in parks.
Creole is what the Sultans of Swing play on Friday night.
1248. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 27, 1999 - 3:00 AM PT
CalGal:
Pidgins are the simplified form of a language which develops when two language groups come into contact.
A Creole is a pidgin which has becaome a native language of a group. Creoles have standardized vocabulary and grammar where pidgins are somewhat haphazard. The process of creolization is a fascinating one, which we explored at some length in the old Pinker thread.
There are a few pidgins still extant in the world today, and about a dozen creoles. At least three nations which I can think of have creoles as their national language (Haiti (Haitan Creole), Papua New Guinea (Tok Pisin) and Vanuatu (Bislama)).
As for the terms in Message #1132:
+power = the group with power
-power = the group without power
In any case of language contact, there will almost always be a more powerful group.
I'm having trouble with my connection, so if this turns out to be a double post, so be it.
1249. DanDillon - Jan. 27, 1999 - 5:01 AM PT
LC,
"One of the most difficult things to handle in learning a new language, from my experience, has been to HEAR the language spoken by a native speaker."
How, then, do you learn the language at all? Your comment strikes me as something analogous to "I really like water, but I just can't stand drinking it." Please explain your alternative methods, if any, for learning a language without hearing it. (Or do you simply grin and bear it when a native speaker opens his mouth?)
1250. DanDillon - Jan. 27, 1999 - 5:04 AM PT
Thanks, Irv for your Message #1248. You beat me to CG's Message #1246.
1251. jkuzmak - Jan. 27, 1999 - 5:37 AM PT
I think we should all take notes on the contents of this thread and attempt a communal poem written in Proto-Indo-European entitled "Ode to Maharushi". The "Rushi" being a great chanter himself.
1252. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 27, 1999 - 6:08 AM PT
Austric Influence on India
Language Family Information
1253. CalGal - Jan. 27, 1999 - 7:13 AM PT
Irv,
Ah. You have helpfully provided me with an explanation of the only two symbols ("+" and "-") that were familiar as well as being understandable in context. Apparently, linguists think these are the difficult terms that require explanation?
Not so. Let me clue you in--the average ignoramus, upon reading that post, is likely to wonder how power is defined, what >> means, confirmation of use of lexicon, and clarification of +/-.
But I shall try again.
Dan posted a theory about language change.
He used some sort of equation.
Contact = speaker with power and speaker without power and then >> pidginization.
Pidgin = lexicon of the more powerful speaker coupled with the grammar of the less powerful speaker and then >> creolization.
Creole = lexicon of more powerful speaker coupled with the grammar of the....and here I'm guessing....speaker whose power is either increasing or decreasing and then >> decreolization.
So in the last, is he saying is that a creole will exist as long as the power of the two groups stays in balance? That if the power of the subordinate group either decreases or increases, decreolization will occur? Either the more powerful language will completely take over or the two languages will merge? If that's not it, I didn't understand, and since I'm not completely sure of the rest of what I've guessed at, I'd thought I'd ask.
1254. DanDillon - Jan. 27, 1999 - 7:31 AM PT
CG,
Allow me to explain. The people who are labelled as [+/- power] are those who are accumulating portions of wealth, prestige, and influence. In other words, they are not diminishing in power. They are prospering. As a result, their language--a creole--will gradually insinuate itself into general use and then vulgarize, thereby becoming decreolized, i.e. standard. See Irv's explanation of a creole in his Message #1248 if that aspect remains unclear. You might also consider using your dictionary.
1255. marjoribanks - Jan. 27, 1999 - 7:50 AM PT
Gentlemen,
I find your discussion quite educational. I appreciate the offer to add two cents on Marathi and Konkani, give me a day or so to look around for some reference material since I don't have any on hand.
1256. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 27, 1999 - 7:56 AM PT
Yes, but if you know the languages surely you can tell us off the top of your head whether Marathi and Konkani have case systems. Just a few details: the number of numbers, genders & cases if any.
1257. FreeToChoose - Jan. 27, 1999 - 7:57 AM PT
Irv
If I said that pidgins are created by adults, and creoles occur when pidgins are taught to children (who add a consistent grammar), how much violence to reality would I be wreaking?
1258. CalGal - Jan. 27, 1999 - 7:58 AM PT
Dan,
", thereby becoming decreolized, i.e. standard. "
Thank you. I looked decreolized up in the dictionary, of course. Alas, it wasn't there.
"In other words, they are not diminishing in power. "
Thanks for clarifying. I realize I could have discovered this by looking up "+/-" in the dictionary and it's really quite sweet of you to save me the effort.
You haven't yet explained ">>" to this poor ignorant one. I couldn't find it in the dictionary, either.
If, perchance, your instructions to me to use that dictionary referred to lexicon, pidgin and creole--in the first I wanted to clarify what was meant by it in that context. The last two I specifically asked for technical definitions--I was curious when the cutover happened.
Finally, the next time you engage in your whiny-ass complaints about the moribund Language thread, stop a moment to wonder if your little pompous fuck act has something to do with it.
1259. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 27, 1999 - 8:14 AM PT
FTC Message #1257:
None at all. In fact, I've seen a linguist describe it as "creole speakers are the children of pidgin speakers" somehere.
CalGal:
You asked the following question:
"And translation of terms in Message #1132? +power, -power, etc."
I thought I was providing an answer to your question. Sorry if I didn't catch what the "etc." referred to.
"Apparently, linguists think these are the difficult terms that require explanation?"
Not at all... they seem pretty clear to me. What *was* your question in Message #1246 in reference to?
As for your questions in Message #1258.
The symbols ">>" merely mean "leads to" or "followed by" or "next" or "then." "[+/-power]" means "with or without power." Power can be political, military, or financial. What exactly is unclear?
Decreolization means remerging with the standard language. This has occurred with a number of creoles in history (the clearest example is the creole languages which developed in the southern United States as a result of the slave trade. Only Gullah remains; the others have undergone decreolization). Some creoles have remained or become strengthened in their pidgin form, at times becoming national languages (Haitian Creole, Tok Pisin, Bislama).
And please, let's try at keep at least *this* thread friendly.
1260. marjoribanks - Jan. 27, 1999 - 8:24 AM PT
Well, reading back properly to see what Pseuder asked for in re Marathi and Konkani has given me a headache. The two languages aren't much different, though contemporary Konkani lacks the niceties of the formal 'Aap' conventions.
In terms of cases, it appears that both Marathi and Konkani fit the list Irv produced for Hindi/Urdu. Many of the cases are never used in spoken Konkani, but are written.
1261. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 27, 1999 - 8:33 AM PT
Marzipranks
If the case system in Marathi and Konkani is as simple as in Urdu/Hindi, why wouldn't they be used in the spoken language? They certainly are in Urdu -- and you can confirm whether that's the case for Hindi. See Message #1170.
1262. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 27, 1999 - 8:34 AM PT
By the way, I agree with Catgut. Dillon constantly pleads for civility & friendliness yet he is always unjustifiably snide and condescending toward those who haven't even been rude to him.
1263. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 27, 1999 - 8:42 AM PT
So far, we have demonstrated that the Germanic, Romance, Indic and Iranian languages have either totally lost their case systems or have simplified them greatly.
But what about Slavic languages _other than_ Russian? Does anybody have a clue about Polish, Czech, Ukrainian, Bulgarian and Serbo-Croatian?
I know that Macedonian, which some consider a dialect of Bulgarian, has completely done away with the case system.
1264. NickVanston - Jan. 27, 1999 - 8:47 AM PT
Creole (increasingly spelt "Kreol") is widely spoken in the islands of La Réunion and Mauritius in the Indian Ocean. Those creoles originated as a language after the French brought slaves from Africa and Madagascar to the islands, to work the sugar-cane plantations (both islands were uninhabited when discovered by the Portugese). In La Réunion, just about everybody speaks creole as well as French, irrespective of their racial or religious background (the island is a fascinating mixture of whites, negroes, Chinese, and Indians from southern India, as well as all combinations of the above). There have been moves recently to give creole some sort of official recognition, but this is mixed in with its growing use as a symbol to differentiate the poor oppressed masses from the arrogant oppressive Europeans. Since there is very little creole literature, and the vocabulary is limited, one hopes people there will keep on using French.
1265. luthercalvin - Jan. 27, 1999 - 8:49 AM PT
"How, then, do you learn the language at all? Your comment strikes me as something analogous to "I really like water, but I just can't stand drinking it." Please explain your alternative methods, if any, for learning a language without hearing it. (Or do you simply grin and bear it when a native speaker opens his mouth?)"
Perhaps I should have been clearer.
If I want to learn Russian, so that I can live in Russia, of course I would have to learn to speak it.
But, if I want to be a top-notch New Testament Greek scholar, I don't have to speak the language at all. That is why it is called a "dead" langauge.
Most people will tell you, I think, that in learning a new language, the most difficult part is not remembering vocabulary and such, but it is HEARING a native speaker speak the language, and then trying to understand it (because they almost always "speak too fast"). Reading and writing the language are almost always easier than hearing comprehension, at least in my experience.
But again, with Greek, one needn't even worry about such things. At least for me, the most difficult part of learning a new language doesn't even come into play with New Testament Greek.
PseudoErasmus >> I apologize. I didn't mean to imply by your comment about Perschbacher and then my own that you aren't a sophisticated Greek student. On the contrary, I have enjoyed immensely this interaction between us on this language.
And I am going now to see your hotlinks. Thanks also for the reference to the work on the pronunciation of Koine!
1266. NickVanston - Jan. 27, 1999 - 8:52 AM PT
The creole spoken in Mauritius is very similar to that spoken in La Réunion, but the Mauritiens are more linguistically diverse. I once read a verbatim transcript in a local newspaper of the judge's remarks to a witness in a court case. He started off in legalistic English, switched to more colloquial French, got more worked up and laid into the witness in creole, and finished off in Hindi.
1267. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 27, 1999 - 8:54 AM PT
luthercalvin: no need to apologise. I didn't think you were implying anything.
Those hotlinks are to be _heard_, not seen.
1268. luthercalvin - Jan. 27, 1999 - 8:59 AM PT
My comment: "With Koine, one doesn't ever have to worry about [how it sounds]."
Response: "Again, on the contrary, it matters terribly if the topic is poetry, and the post-classical Hellenistic period offers lots of poetry."
I should have been very specific. I meant New Testament Greek.
By the way, I couldn't get the hotlinks to work. They kept coming back "insufficient memory" and aborting. I have never had that problem before.
1269. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 27, 1999 - 9:00 AM PT
PE:
Thanks for providing the links in Message #1252.
The first link, on Austric languages, is quite bizarre. Many of the things the writer says in the first part are outlandish, and go against the grain of all linguistic (and anthropological) thought I've come across. Some examples:
• I've never seen anyone else try to fit Japanese/Ainu into Austric.
• Bataks (an ethnic group in Sumatra) are not small of stature. They are actually somewhat taller than the average Indonesian.
• Claiming the Austronesians developed in the Southern Philippines or Eastern Indonesia is linguistically indefensible. Eastern Indonesia, a region largely filled with Indo-Pacific (not Austronesian) languages is a particularly strange assertion. Experts debate a Taiwan or South China homeland, both of which have a great deal of evidence behind them.
The writer states:
"Sometime between 1,500 B.C. and 2,000 B.C., the Lapita culture of Fiji and Tonga developed. Therefore, we can safely assume that the Proto- or Pre-Austronesians had already reached many areas of either Micronesia or Melanesia to the West."
This is quite likely. How does he justify this with his etymologies relating Austronesian to Sanskrit?
More examples:
"The presence of Austronesians in Madagascar has been confirmed to at least the beginning of the era, although Solheim states that work to find the earliest habitation has not yet been completed. The lack of iron and Hindu-Buddhist influences, suggest an even earlier date."
Linguistic evidence makes it clear that the date could not possibly be this far back. The area of Borneo the ancestors of the Malagasys came from was never Hinduized, and had a rather primitive culture until this century, so the lack of iron is no surprise.
[continued]
1270. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 27, 1999 - 9:04 AM PT
"However, many experts believe that certain cultural items in India like the outrigger ships, the coconut, the betel, etc., may have actually been introduced by Austronesian peoples."
What experts are these? Cultural influence went from India to the Austronesian peoples, over the past 2000 years. Possibly some of these innovations were brought on the return trip. Coconuts are a cultural item?
"Although no true Austronesian languages exist in modern India, studies have shown that there are such influences in both modern and ancient Indian languages."
What studies? I have never seen any evidence of any influence whatsoever. The reverse is not true, as Western Austronesian languages are filled with loanwords from Sanskrit and Tamil.
"The evidence points to the Austric family being originally agglutinative in morphology, or structure. Indeed, all still are agglutinative or partly agglutinative with the possible exception of the Miao-Yao dialects."
Bullshit. Austronesian languages are heavily analytical. I'll be giving evidence of this soon. This is the most ludicrous claim in the whole article.
The whole section on "Description of language" is complete crap. Wtf does this mean:
"6. The languages tend to be terse in nature."
or this:
"8. They tend towards exclusive and secret speech."
The second part of the study, where the writer attempts to equate Sanskrit words with Austronesian words, is a perfect example of bad lexical work, as described in the link Hashké recently provided.
Some points:
• Sanskrit's arrival in India is pretty well pinpointed within the past 4000 years, at which point the Austronesian migration was well underway.
• A number of the words provided as evidence of cognates are transparently loanwords (vamsa > bansa/bangsa, bhas > bahasa).
[continued]
1271. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 27, 1999 - 9:10 AM PT
• The relationships are often on the basis of one shared phoneme or vowel. This is linguistically unacceptable.
• The writer includes kinship terms of the papa/mama variety, which are shared by many of the world's languages, and are usually omitted from any comparison due to sound symbolism.
• The writer attempts to link modern forms from Austronesian languages with Sanskrit words, even though proto-Austronesian reconstructions clearly show these words are derived from forms quite distant to the Sanskrit forms used.
• I looked at every supposed cognate in the list, and nothing even looks as if it could be written off as chance (like "dori" in Rumanian and Lau). These are simply *non-cognates*. Verry shoddy work.
Even if we attribute some of the supposed similarities to chance, the writer is guilty of all three of the types of words Greenberg and Ruhlen omit when comparing languages. I'm not even sure what the writer was trying to prove -- that Austronesian languages are descended from Sanskrit?
The second link you provided, on Language Families is interesting and accurate. But I wonder why the writer went to all the trouble. Has he never heard of Ethnologue?
1272. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 27, 1999 - 9:26 AM PT
PE Message #1263:
I have data on Polish, Czech, Slovak and Serbo-Croat. Polish and Serbo-Croat have identical systems, with seven cases (N,V, A, G, D, I, L) with a-stem, masculine o-stem, neuter o-stem and i-stem declensions. Czech is even more complex, with the same seven cases, and twelve (!) declensions. Slovak is almost the same as Czech, but lacks the Vocative case. I was amazed to discover that all these languages (except Slovak) had more cases than Russian.
Here's an example of singular a-stem forms from Polish:
N glowa
V glowo
A glowe
G glowy
D glowie
I glowa
L glowie
This is the singular "feminine hard declension" for Czech (Slovak is almost identical, lacking only the V case):
N zena 'woman'
V zeno
A zenu
G zeny
D zene
I zenou
L zene
And the same word in Serbo-Croat (an a-stem word):
N zena
V zeno
A zenu
G zene
D zeni
I zenom
L zeni
Note: I have omitted diacritical marks from all three examples, since this format can't handle them.
1273. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 27, 1999 - 9:30 AM PT
NickVanston:
Thank you for the remarks on creole in the Indian Ocean islands. I found the judge's multilingulism particularly interesting.
1274. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 27, 1999 - 9:49 AM PT
PE:
I tried your wav links, but couldn't get them to work, probably because of my abysmally slow connection here. I'll try them again in one of those rare moments of speedy connection that I get.
1275. CalGal - Jan. 27, 1999 - 10:01 AM PT
Irving,
Actually, your answer was all that was required. Thank you.
As for "friendly"--was this the thread where Seguine referred to the lad as DanDildo? And Dillon was referring to Pseudo as...hmm, what was it--something terribly clever....Fucko Bazoo?
Unplug your ears, breathe, and, occasionally, open your eyes. Dillon was acting like a rude little fuck.
1276. DanDillon - Jan. 27, 1999 - 10:10 AM PT
LC Message #1265,
"Reading and writing the language are almost always easier than hearing comprehension [for a student of that language], at least in my experience."
Interesting. In my expereince, I have found the opposite to be true. It seems to me that, as both a student and a teacher of languages, listening comprehension-- deciphering the sounds of a language and identifying their meaning--comes before reading and writing. Simply because a student or a traveller asks a speaker to slow down doesn't mean that comprehension isn't taking place. It simply means that the listener needs to better isolate the concatenated sounds of the language so as to assign them their meaning. The sounds of a language are far more accessible to a language learner, I think, than its writing system. Indeed, reproducing a language vocally, I'm sure, is a far more intuitive process than reproducing it in writing. Perhaps my bakground in phonetics has led me to such an opinion. Can anyone back me up on this? Or do you support LC's claim? Whatever the case, this makes for an intriguing discussion.
1277. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 27, 1999 - 10:11 AM PT
CalGal:
I agree Dan's that Dan's dictionary comment was rude. But your "pompous fuck" comment is the kind of escalation which belongs in other threads, not this one. You can call him on his rudeness without being even ruder yourself. It would probably have a better effect as well.
I don't condone Seguine's name for Dan or Dan's name for PE, as they well know. When I see things like that, I avoid the thread. I'd just like to see a few threads in the Fray where people stay on subject and are reasonably civil... the Fray as a whole is a hopeless cause. I've been enjoying the discussion in this thread greatly, and I'd really prefer to keep it civil.
1278. DanDillon - Jan. 27, 1999 - 10:16 AM PT
(Please pardon this slight interregnum.)
CG,
Don't worry so much about others. It merely causes undue stress.
1279. DanDillon - Jan. 27, 1999 - 10:20 AM PT
I sincerely apologize for any and all prior indiscretions. I ask those offended parties to forgive me my trespasses.
Now, back to Language.
1280. stostosto - Jan. 27, 1999 - 10:22 AM PT
pseudomus
Re: Rudimentary gender. (Message #1184)
"Well, the Economist knew what I was talking about. In the 23-29 January issue, which contains a "Survey of the Nordic countries", there is a photo of one whom I take to be Stostostosto, lying totally nude in snow...with a rather rudimentary gender."
Have you absolutely no manners? No sense of civility? No consideration for fellow human beings, not to mention fellow Fraygrants? Many a brave Fraygrant has angrily, embittered and thoroughly traumatized quit this forum over far less outrageous kinds of personal persecutions and expositions here. It's a good thing I am such a snow-hardened Scandinavian.
By the way: If you get the opportunity, say, on your next new year's trip to Vladivostok, try and take a naked roll in the snow yourself and see what that does to *your* gender! Go on! Don't be afraid - it's not a permanent condition. A good remedy, widely used in these parts, is to contact a Scandinavian of the opposite, if only rudimentary, gender. That usually works wonders.
[Sorry, I've only been awake for 3 hours]
1281. stostosto - Jan. 27, 1999 - 10:58 AM PT
Irv.
Being the only Dane in this forum (bar the possibility of as yet unexposed ones) I have the luxury of being able to indulge in ethnocentricity and egocentricity at the same time. Thus, your story of the Dane Law Message #1193 naturally caught my attention.
I wonder: What is this "Cyberdeli" operation that you run in Bali together with a person referred to as "BG", and whose customers are 70% Danish? (Who, apparently, if regrettably, seem unable to grasp your humour).
I also ask because some of my friends went to Bali a short while ago. One of them is an English teacher who takes no small pride in her English language proficiency. Perhaps she has been served by you - I'd like to find that out and, if possible, hear her impression of your Dane Law writings. Otherwise, I would be keen to be able to inform her that she may be contributing to the Danes' lamentably superficial understanding of English.
---
Btw, I am much impressed by your knowledge of language. (And that goes for several other contributors as well. Feel free to feel mentioned). In a later life I will make that subject my study of choice.
1282. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 27, 1999 - 11:20 AM PT
Sheesh. I just posted a long answer to Message #1281, which seems to have disappeared.
1283. CalGal - Jan. 27, 1999 - 11:26 AM PT
Irv,
"When I see things like that, I avoid the thread. "
I am not trying to have the last word, I promise. My point is that you responded to my use of bad language by asking me to cease. Why not, instead, just avoid the thread? That's what you did the last time, with no requests.
But I get very tired of your "tsk-tsks" being handed out randomly, with the only criteria being your interest in the conversation at hand. Unless, of course, you are not acting in your role as FrayGod, but just Irving. In which case I nobly grant you the right of inconsistency.
Dan,
Apology accepted.
1284. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 27, 1999 - 11:29 AM PT
I'll try again (and save it elsewhere this time).
stostosto:
We'll have a webpage for our Cyberdeli soon, but in the meantime, you can check out this page. BG is BG Pelaire, a sometime fraygrant, who is my business partner here in Bali.
I dropped by the Cyberdeli today, and the customers were *all* Danes. They were writing e-mails in Danish, chatting on ICQ in Danish, and generally doing the things Danes do (though, thankfully, we had no snow for them to expose their rudimentary genders in). It seems we have become the "in" place in Bali for Danish tourists to hang out. Perhaps your friend was one of our customers.
I didn't mean to imply, btw, with my comments on our "Dane Law" that I have anything but the greatest admiration for the English language abilities of the Danes I've met. Our customers speak excellent English, with only the slightest of accents, confirming my already high opinion of English language education in Denmark. Humor, however, is something one can't learn at school. We are doing our best to educate our Danish customers.
You mention you're the only Dane in the Fray. Do you happen to know what country "pellenilsson" is from? I only know he's Scandinavian (and not Norwegian, judging by his last name).
1285. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 27, 1999 - 11:31 AM PT
CalGal:
I was not participating in the thread the last time it occurred. No one was raining on my parade. This time I am actively participating, and I hate to see the mood change.
1286. pseudoerasmus - Jan. 27, 1999 - 11:32 AM PT
I had done my "ask that Skandie some questions about Skandiland" routine with Pellenilsson, just as I recently did with Stostostosto in the international thread. Nilsson is a Swede, and unlike the cheerful & humourous Stostosto, the man is earnest to Bergmanian proportions, as one might stereotype a Swede.
1287. CalGal - Jan. 27, 1999 - 11:34 AM PT
About "creole" and "pidgin":
According to Webster's, "creole" has been around since 1748; "pidgin" since 1876. But they were originally used to describe specific languages, yes? "Pidgin" was first used to describe a form of English(?). "Creole" was first used to describe a form of French(?).
When did these words start to be used as more generic terms to describe phases in language development/transformation?
1288. PsychProf - Jan. 27, 1999 - 11:35 AM PT
Fine wine, this thread.
1289. ChristiPeters - Jan. 27, 1999 - 11:36 AM PT
Irv and stostosto-
I am of Danish descent. However, as I do not contribute to this thread (only accaisionally lurk), stostosto is free to ignore my existance as a 'Danish' Frayster.
&:o)
1290. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 27, 1999 - 11:38 AM PT
CalGal:
I'm not sure when they achieved their present meanings. I know that ancient pidgins (there was a Mediterranean pidgin in ancient times, which is the subject of much controversy in linguistic circles) were referred to as "koines."
1291. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 27, 1999 - 11:49 AM PT
According to the OED, "pidgin" first appeared in 1826, and derived from a Chinese corruption of "business." Also from the OED, "creole" (from Spanish crillo "native to the locality", via French) was originally applied (1590) to Spaniards born in the West Indies. Its first appearance in English was in 1604 referring to West Indies-born Spaniards. Its first appearance in reference to a language was in the late 19th century, and appears to have referred to American-born Africans, English-speakers specifically. Also from the OED, koine (from the Greek for the common literary dialect) first appeared in English in the late 19th century, and is defined as "...any language or dialect in regular use over a wide area in which different languages are... in use."
1292. CalGal - Jan. 27, 1999 - 11:50 AM PT
Irv,
How odd. You seem to have formal definitions for both.
Dan posted a description of the "basic theory of language change" for the transformation of a language from contact to pidgin to creole to decreolization. Is his description of that theory and process generally accepted? If so, what was this process called before the words "creole" and "pidgin" were used?
Or were the words transformed into generics specifically to describe this process and theory?
1293. CalGal - Jan. 27, 1999 - 11:52 AM PT
Irv,
Thanks--I'd take the OED over Webster's any day. (There still is no online source for OED, yes?) And thanks for the etymology. So Creole, as a language, was first used to describe English speakers as well, if I understand you.
1294. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 27, 1999 - 11:56 AM PT
CalGal:
The meanings of pidgin and creole have become formalized in modern linguistics.
There is a clear continuum of pidgin > creole > decreolization. However, some languages never get past the pidgin stage (Chinese Pidgin English was used for 300 years and never became creolized), or don't get past the creole stage (especially formalized creoles, such as Haitian Creole, Tok Pisin and Bislama).
Dan's description of this process to define all language change/contact is not generally accepted, and is a subject of debate. It certainly occurs in *some* instances. But I, for one, am not convnced that it can be applied to all instances.
1295. IrvingSnodgrass - Jan. 27, 1999 - 12:00 PM PT
CalGal:
No, I doubt the OED will be on-line any time in the foreseeable future. They're still charging a fortune for a CD-ROM version.
Yes, the first use of Creole (in English) to describe a language referred to an English-based creole. It may have been used previously in other languages to describe creoles based on other languages (especially French).
1296. stostosto - Jan. 27, 1999 - 12:24 PM PT
Irv.
Thank you. Seems like a cosy little joint you have made for yourself. Actually it sounds like a veritable paradise: The charming climate and exotic lures of Bali topped up with an ample attendance of that most admirable and adorable species of the human race: The Danes.
BUT. I advice you not to air your opinion of the Danish sense of humour. We Danes do not take likely to that sort of thing. And it is a matter of certified fact that we have the finest sense of humour on earth. Everybody knows that. Here.
For now, you are lucky. I will be gracious enough not to mention these views of yours to other Danes. That might ruin your business.
(Hehehehe. I just realize this gives me an edge: As in "Nice little operation you've got yourself there. Hate to see anything happen to it." Hehehe.)
By the way: Why does your t-shirt feature a guy who looks like an orthodox Jew? I take it he is not a typical Danish customer...
1297. CalGal - Jan. 27, 1999 - 12:24 PM PT
Irving,
Journal of Pidgin and Creole Languages--Glossary.
If I understand this, a guy named Derek Bickerton first came up with the terms "pidginization" and "creolization" in a book called "Roots of Language". Or maybe they are just quoting his definition. Can't tell for sure.
1298. stostosto - Jan. 27, 1999 - 12:32 PM PT
Last word on the rudimentary gender of Scandinavians. Recently there was a story reported in the Norwegian press that Russian prostitutes on business trips to northern Norway featured a novelty: They would offer a package combining their traditional services with a Viagra pill.
I have been thinking of posting the news of this groundbreaking innovation in the Fray but I didn't know whether it belonged in the "Esoterica", "International" or "News of the Day" thread.
Now, it's clear to me it belongs in the up and coming "rudimentary gender" thread.
---
The story didn't say whether the Viagra was necessary because of the rudimentary gender of Norwegians, or because of the limited appeal of what the Russianines had to offer..
1299. DanDillon - Jan. 27, 1999 - 1:41 PM PT
Just as pidginization, creolization and decreolization are processes that describe points along a continuum of langauge change, the words "pidgin" and "creole" have undergone changes themselves, a fact Irv and CG have illuminated nicely in the last dozen or so posts. I simply wanted to mention that this change in meaning of "pidgin" and "creole" has a name as well: generalization (or widening). Seems like just about *everything* has a name in the hyper-careful but never exact field of linguistics.
1300. marjoribanks - Jan. 27, 1999 - 3:10 PM PT
stostosto,
For future reference: posts about Russian prostitutes should always be aired in the International thread.