602. ChristiPeters - Feb. 9, 1999 - 2:59 PM PT
I think in countries that favor the chadoor(sp?), the marriage partnerships are set up by the parents or something and the physical appearance of the respective mates is irrelevant. However, I actually have no idea if I am correct on that.
OK, you more knowledgable types - post, already!
603. CalGal - Feb. 9, 1999 - 3:01 PM PT
Bubba,
No, I understood what you were saying. I was referring to *my* post having nothing to do with modesty. I had just read the article and thought it was interesting. So when you mentioned it, I took the opportunity to post.
604. Mrtoner - Feb. 9, 1999 - 3:27 PM PT
These chadoor-marrying chaps are just natural gamblers, taking a page from the technique popularlized on "The Price is Right."
"Now, then, Muhammad, would you like what's behind chadoor number one, or chadoor number two?"
605. jkuzmak - Feb. 9, 1999 - 3:28 PM PT
Since this is the male boasting thread, does anyone want to hear about my bicycle club's (Adventure Beyond Cycling =ABC) cross country trip to San Francisco and the Erotic Ball this past Fall. We went as the "N.E. Pa Goddess Contingent with Male Auxillary." It took me and me mates 2 years to gather a following of intelligent and beautiful goddesses from the Gentleman's Clubs in the area, but we did it. We actually took a leisurely drive across the country stopping at a bunch of interesting places, and biked when we got to San Francisco. Kayaked in the bay, etc. etc. Adventure Beyond Cycling, baby.
606. chloel - Feb. 9, 1999 - 4:20 PM PT
Jonesatlaw
However, in species with few & expensive young, the possible benefit to a sluttish male is reduced - his abandoned children are less likely to survive well enough to have grandchildren - and male modesty is also useful, since it makes him look more as though he has all his eggs in one basket and will be a good parent.
You're also skating way too close to implying that selection optimizes single organisms, and using 'programming' without definition, which makes any statement involving 'programming' particularly meaningless.
607. joezan - Feb. 9, 1999 - 7:23 PM PT
Jones:
"Thus, the strategies of males, casting one's genetic legacy as broadly and frequently as possible, while attempting to insure that one raises only one's own biological offspring is countered by a female strategy that insures one to raise one's offspring, while seeking the greatest biological advantage in acutal mating."
Since this is the Male Boasting Thread, I have a scientifically-backed boast to offer, which effectively proves that, even at the spermatozoan level, we men have the fairer sex figured out. To wit:
The numbers of mutant sperm present to varying degrees in every, uh... human male ejaculation, which had previously been thought to be just that - mutants (because they are incapable of causing fertilization) - have recently been proven to have a rather useful purpose....
They hang around the base of the woman's cervix for up to a week, lying in wait for any enemy sperms which might find their way in. Then, they attack and kill them.
Of course, this means one would have to have sex with one's wife at least once a week for this amazing reproductive defense system to work. But, barring that, don't we all need to rely on faith - and faithfulness - to some degree?
608. chloel - Feb. 9, 1999 - 7:55 PM PT
joezan
No matter whose mutant sperm are stronger; the egg is choosy.
609. joezan - Feb. 9, 1999 - 8:25 PM PT
chloel:
Your ovarian choosiness has nothing on my single-minded, loyal and murderously territorial little soldiers.
610. RustlerPike - Feb. 9, 1999 - 8:39 PM PT
THE DEFINITIVE PENIS SIZE SURVEY RESULTS: SIXTH EDITION
including:
- VITAL PENIS STATISTICS FOR MEN 18 YEARS AND OLDER
- SIZE CONTENTMENT BY SELF RANKED ENDOWMENT STATUS
- HISTOGRAM OF ERECT PENIS LENGTHS
- PENIS SIZE AND RACE (surprise!)
- SCATTERGRAM OF LENGTH OF FLACCID PENIS VS. PERCENT INCREASE IN LENGTH DURING ERECTION
- CLINICAL PICS
and much much more!
611. darkviolet - Feb. 9, 1999 - 10:31 PM PT
wow.
612. resonance - Feb. 10, 1999 - 12:11 AM PT
(laughing very hard)
It seems to have gotten AWFULLY quiet in here all of a sudden.
613. darkviolet - Feb. 10, 1999 - 12:39 AM PT
The pictures of measurements being taken at the end of the page are almost to funny to respond to, especially the one showing the guy's feet. In some ways, men seem so serious about this stuff, in other ways, so ridiculous. I guess men are mysterious, too.
614. darkviolet - Feb. 10, 1999 - 12:51 AM PT
Well, I don't know. He probably thinks he looks cool. Men are so strange about those things.
615. darkviolet - Feb. 10, 1999 - 12:58 AM PT
The difference in the application of the idea of modesty between men and women is part of what gives me the impression that men have sex organs while women are sex organs.
616. SaraBand - Feb. 10, 1999 - 2:38 AM PT
Male boasting and female modesty, whatever they are, do play roles in the survival of the species. And either one, carried to extremes, is obviously not what it was intended to be, and might even be self-defeating. But what about those questionable cases?
Isn't it a fact that, although it rings hollow, it's a group boast when men makes jokes about women's "bitchiness" during "that week" of the month? Men are trying to say, when they make these remarks, that they're more level-headed, simply more naturally level all the time, as a group, than women. What if menstruation has a purpose other than the one connected to reproduction? What if, God forbid, menstruation isn't some lingering mistake of nature that inconveniences men? What if it marks the only time in a month that a woman doesn't have to be modest, subservient, etc.? Maybe that week exists because women need a reprieve for the sake of each one's personal sanity and survival (as well as for the survival of the species).
If there's the slightest possibility that this theory holds true, what might it say about other forms of boasting, other prejudices?
617. jkuzmak - Feb. 10, 1999 - 3:11 AM PT
Darkviolet:
I like 615. I have to ponder it a while, but I like it.
618. SaraBand - Feb. 10, 1999 - 3:22 AM PT
By the way. Nothing in my #616 is meant to evoke pity for women. Once a woman becomes aware of the value of this thing men have called bitchiness, she can never give it up. Giving it up would put a woman in a state of false modesty. And it would condone men's living in a dream world.
619. Slackjaw - Feb. 10, 1999 - 3:39 AM PT
Sara:
are you claiming that in a population of women who experience no adverse attitudinal consequences of menstruation (bitchiness, I guess), a "mutant" woman who does will be a more attractive mate?
At the very best, for partners who have no intention of a relationship, this "mutant" is no more attractive (who cares how she'll act in 3 weeks?). For those that do, why is this feature something to be preferred to the more common "non-bitchy" trait?
620. Slackjaw - Feb. 10, 1999 - 3:42 AM PT
incidentally, I think jokes about PMS often have more to do with the fact that we don't know what in blazes is going on.
621. SaraBand - Feb. 10, 1999 - 3:48 AM PT
And while I'm ranting. Why does MK (or Irv or whomever) think he can either inspire or force people to fight about stupid shit? Does he believe readers are going to remain attached once they recognize the hoakiness of this? Something about that tack reminds me of professional wrestling. Something about that tack reminds me of what it is that I hate about the media.
622. SaraBand - Feb. 10, 1999 - 3:56 AM PT
Slackjaw:
You know perfectly well I'm saying the thing is adverse only to a man's picture of the status quo.
623. bubbaette - Feb. 10, 1999 - 5:13 AM PT
Rustler Pike
Well finally -- some empirical data.
624. IrvingSnodgrass - Feb. 10, 1999 - 5:15 AM PT
SaraBand:
I merely look for topics which are of interest to our participants. This thread was started because there was a relevant Slate dialogue and it was one of those rare subjects we haven't covered here in the Fray before. The title of this thread was changed to follow the trend of the posts which were appearing. There is no manipulation involved in the threads started around here: I try to follow what interests the participants. I welcome *your* suggestions for new threads.
625. SaraBand - Feb. 10, 1999 - 5:39 AM PT
I'm sorry, Irv. I should've just said the whole subject was, in my opinion, stupid. It's kind of like discussing the merits of having ankles. The only way it can be addressed with interest seems to be either from an uttlerly practical standpoint or from a slightly absurd perspective. (Maybe those two mesh.)
I promise to keep my opinions exactly where they're supposed to be.
626. Mrtoner - Feb. 10, 1999 - 5:47 AM PT
I think ankles are nice.
627. SaraBand - Feb. 10, 1999 - 5:51 AM PT
Mr. Toner, just link. Don't speak. Above all, don't think.
628. IrvingSnodgrass - Feb. 10, 1999 - 5:56 AM PT
Speaking of links, CalGal posted this link in another thread to an article describing what happens when Female Modesty is taken to extremes.
629. SaraBand - Feb. 10, 1999 - 6:28 AM PT
Sorry to all. One can speak, if I have it correctly, now, as long as everything said proceeds from something already published. Of course. How stupid could I be? Why didn't I think of the logic in that? It's so...pure.
630. Msivorytower - Feb. 10, 1999 - 6:42 AM PT
God, that article was profoundly sad.
I am deeply moved by the conditions these women must live under.
631. DanDillon - Feb. 10, 1999 - 7:06 AM PT
I'll bite.
SaraBand,
Methinks you air your gripes in a vacuum. Who are you and what/who are you getting at?
632. SaraBand - Feb. 10, 1999 - 7:33 AM PT
DanDillon:
I'm someone who made a suggestion about the nature of female modesty. I'm asking whether it can be decided that more female modesty is a good thing when we may not have decided what modesty is. I'm suggesting questions about perspective and language and power.
633. DanDillon - Feb. 10, 1999 - 8:00 AM PT
Very well, then.
Any takers?
634. Slackjaw - Feb. 10, 1999 - 8:51 AM PT
SaraBand:
Message #622 Obviously. I presume this is the point of view a man would use in deciding on a potential mate. Now, would you answer my questions about this supposed purpose of menstruation?
635. SaraBand - Feb. 10, 1999 - 8:56 AM PT
DanDillon:
I don't think I'm wrong. And I know there are people in this forum who know what I'm talking about. That knowledge, in fact, was part of what made me speak in the first place.
636. SaraBand - Feb. 10, 1999 - 9:05 AM PT
Slackjaw:
It's a theory. Which concept seems to you most impossible?
637. DanDillon - Feb. 10, 1999 - 9:10 AM PT
SaraBand,
Your capacity for reaction formation is startling. I did not claim that you are wrong. I will state, however, that you are unnecessarily antagonistic. If you'd like to engage your fellow fraygrants in an intelligent, meaningful, and productive debate on female modesty (or any topic at all)--and I do not doubt your ability or desire to do so--I suggest you might exercise a smidgen of humility and a measure of grace.
638. Mrtoner - Feb. 10, 1999 - 9:19 AM PT
DanDillon...RE #637...humility? ...grace?
Jeez, obviously, you're new around here.
639. msivorytower - Feb. 10, 1999 - 9:23 AM PT
SaraBand
I'm really at a loss reading your recent posts. Are you new? If so, what has got you in a tizzy?
Your Message #616 seemed to be only a possible observation, nothing in it was so controversial that it seemed to cry out for a response. In fact, I was waiting for you to expand on your thinking, which seemed a bit incomplete, as yet.
I also thought Slack's questions were relevant and sound.
What in the world caused you to begin ranting against MK, Irving, and the issue of linking?
I feel like I've walked into the middle of high drama missing a vital piece of information....
640. SaraBand - Feb. 10, 1999 - 9:43 AM PT
DanDillon:
On the contrary, the problem is that I was too modest when I evaluated the idea. But that doesn't detract from the value of the idea.
641. DanDillon - Feb. 10, 1999 - 9:57 AM PT
Mrtoner,
Shush.
SaraBand,
As is common in the Fray, we are talking right past each other. I don't quite know where to go from here, as you seem to be failing at making any sense.
642. SaraBand - Feb. 10, 1999 - 10:14 AM PT
DanDillon:
We're not talking past one another. You're right with me, every step of the way.
643. PsychProf - Feb. 10, 1999 - 10:16 AM PT
Does Sara want to be "the poet in our heart?
644. ChristinO - Feb. 10, 1999 - 11:41 AM PT
SaraBand,
I'm still trying to figure out what your point is.
You appear to be looking for a greater purpose behind Menstruation than the preparation of the uterus to carry a child. I'm unclear what reproductive benefits are imparted by cyclic "bitchiness" which some women suffer and others not at all.
645. DanDillon - Feb. 10, 1999 - 11:58 AM PT
Menses 1
SaraBand 0
646. ChristinO - Feb. 10, 1999 - 12:04 PM PT
Likely I'm demonstrating my amazing talent for stating the obvious, but it looks as if we've pretty much settled on the sexually oriented definition of Modest.
Hi Dan!
647. DanDillon - Feb. 10, 1999 - 12:08 PM PT
Chris, what's shakin'? Have I ever mentioned that I admire your prose style? And no, I'm not just saying that to get down your pants.
648. ChristinO - Feb. 10, 1999 - 12:37 PM PT
Thanks, Dan! That makes my day.
Don't worry, it would never occur to me that you were attempting to get down my pants in such a manner----you're much more forthright than that.
I'll look for you in the corner to catch up on current events.
649. DanDillon - Feb. 10, 1999 - 1:26 PM PT
"...you're much more forthright than that."
Yet ever-modest!
650. chloel - Feb. 10, 1999 - 1:42 PM PT
Cripes, people, read Dawkins or somebody... if periodic bitchiness doesn't seem to aid sexual reproduction, look for
a) Survival benefit (grabby women get more food?)
b) An error in your assumed data (until well into the agricultural period, menstruation may have been quite rare, between long nursing and low bodyfat. Since PMS is known to vary with habits, possibly the potential for PMS was not expressed in most of human evolution even if menstruation was more common. It's also odd to assume that bitchiness would be principally directed at one's mate; early people didn't go home to families of 3.63 people in a bungalow.)
651. bubbaette - Feb. 10, 1999 - 1:47 PM PT
I still assert that the way that cultural demands for female modesty really keep us down is by saying it's impolite to call attention to yourself, even if that means letting someone else take credit for your work and your ideas. It's saying to yourself "well, maybe I misunderstood your point" instead of "you're dead wrong and I'm not going to let you pull that guff on me." Its being polite when maybe we should tell someone who's imposing on us to go to hell.
I also think that that type of modesty gets women the reputation for being manipulative -- it's not proper to say what you think or what you want outright, instead you have to beat around the bush and convince your superiors that they thought of it first.
652. chloel - Feb. 10, 1999 - 1:56 PM PT
Hear, hear, Bubbaette.
653. ChristiPeters - Feb. 10, 1999 - 1:57 PM PT
bubba -
YES!
When working for NASA, I observed a *lovely* phenomenon. Picture it - a group meeting discussing project priorities. Bill is loud and insistent that his project should have highest priority. Jane's behavior is almost identical to Bill's concerning her project.
After meeting comments: "Boy, that Bill sure is a go-getter!"
"Geez, Jane sure was bitchy today! Do you think it's *that* time of the month".
Whereupon, lowly co-op worker Christi excuses herself to go to the restroom to vent screech of frustration.
In retrospect, perhaps I should have called them on this. I had little to lose except my co-op prospects for next year...
Umm, on second thought I don't regret keeping mum. I had/have a kid to feed and, rightly or wrongly, that takes precedence over social crusading.
654. bubbaette - Feb. 10, 1999 - 2:12 PM PT
Christi
When I used to work for an elected official I used to get callers wanting the official to intervene on their behalf who asked me "is there a man there I can talk to?" Though I was tempted to give them the custodian or a high school intern, protocol was to remain polite and let them speak to a male on staff who knew nothing at all about the subject at hand. So if perhaps these folks' cases didn't receive the care or attention that they otherwise could have -- they got to talk to a man.
655. ChristiPeters - Feb. 10, 1999 - 2:28 PM PT
LOL
bubba - I *liked* that! Perhaps it is wicked of me to like it, but I like it anyway!
*chuckle*
Say - isn't it past quittin' time for you?
656. jexster - Feb. 10, 1999 - 8:36 PM PT
I find the Moslem prohibition on women at mosques and funerals very interesting, inspiring even.
Why is this so? What happens when a woman dies?
657. jexster - Feb. 10, 1999 - 8:36 PM PT
"is there a man there I can talk to?"
658. aldavis - Feb. 10, 1999 - 9:56 PM PT
jexster
Women never die, they just bitch away. I hope to god they are all abed or my ass is grass.
659. MrSocko - Feb. 10, 1999 - 10:03 PM PT
Does anybody know where I might obtain a copy of Pauline Reage's _Story of ChristinO_?
660. ChristinO - Feb. 10, 1999 - 10:49 PM PT
You'll have to wait 'til I'm dead or at least a recluse and then read my memoirs, dear.
661. Mrtoner - Feb. 11, 1999 - 4:49 AM PT
bubbaette, re #654...
These people who called you and asked to speak to a man....
'Ever notice how many of them were women? 'Kinda adds an extra sad dimension to your commentary, doesn't it?
662. IrvingSnodgrass - Feb. 11, 1999 - 5:54 AM PT
jexster:
"I find the Moslem prohibition on women at mosques and funerals very interesting, inspiring even."
This is not true in all Islamic nations. I've been to many funerals and burials here in Indonesia (of both men and women), and there is no such prohibition. I think it's a Middle Eastern custom, and not an Islamic one.
663. DanDillon - Feb. 11, 1999 - 6:19 AM PT
Even in Morocco, one of the most westernized Muslim countries around, mourners are segregated. Though there are rarely two funeral services for the purpose; women occupy one room and men another as the body lay in state. Internment is often a co-ed affair.
664. DanDillon - Feb. 11, 1999 - 6:20 AM PT
Rather the procession to the burial is often co-ed.
665. IrvingSnodgrass - Feb. 11, 1999 - 7:50 AM PT
Dan:
"Internment is often a co-ed affair."
They have co-ed prisons in Morocco? Wow!
666. DanDillon - Feb. 11, 1999 - 8:15 AM PT
A rare but lovely occurrence. Of course I meant intermittent.
Yes, yes, of course. Interment.
Ya got me.
667. DocBrown - Feb. 11, 1999 - 8:24 AM PT
Assuming the prohibition of women at mosques does exist in some (Middle Eastern?) culture, I wonder if this has a significant effect on their religious faith.
Perhaps these women actually *benefit* from the lower level of religious indoctrination.
668. marjoribanks - Feb. 11, 1999 - 8:34 AM PT
I don't think women are any less religious in Islamic countries, even though they are compelled to worship separately from men. Lots of other religions insist on this after all, orthodox Judaism is one of them. Where women might benefit is that they aren't compelled or encouraged to study Islam in Medressehs, so if a woman is inclined towards education she is likely to learn more useful stuff than endless Koran memorization etc.
The most interesting funeral ceremony IMO is that of the Parsis. The body is taken by the family and by mourners to a 'Tower of Silence' where waiting white-clad priests (you have to be born one) take it into the grounds, wash it, and then place it out within a well-like structure for vultures to eat. Essentially, you say goodbye to the person at the gates of the Tower of Silence.
669. TabouliJones - Feb. 11, 1999 - 8:40 AM PT
MarjoriBanks,
The work of Rohinton Mistry has some wonderful passages describing the Parsi's funeral ceremony -- cf. his short story collection, "Tales from Firosha (sp??) Baag", or his novel "Such a Fine Balance".
670. IrvingSnodgrass - Feb. 11, 1999 - 8:43 AM PT
Doc:
Islam does not forbid women in mosques, but men and women must worship separately. Often this takes the form of separate mosques, unless a mosque is large enough to have completely separate areas of worship and entrance for men and women. The separation of worship is true in all of Islam, not just in the Middle East.
671. marjoribanks - Feb. 11, 1999 - 8:47 AM PT
Tabouli,
Yes, he's a very good writer. Yet another in a series of "Canadians" turning out unique and memorable fiction these days.However, I think you're confusing 'Such a Long Journey' with 'A Fine Balance', his two books other than the delightful 'Tales from Firozsha Baag'.
672. jexster - Feb. 11, 1999 - 9:01 AM PT
Irv,
Been to Indonesia 2 and it didn't strike me as "Moslem" as Westerners commonly misconceive the term. I should like to know more about the faith.
UR probably right about the Middle Eastern practice of gender segregation, witness the recent fracas at the Western Wall.
673. TabouliJones - Feb. 11, 1999 - 9:03 AM PT
Marlori,
Yikes, I did merge the two titles. The Fray is so damn slow lately. I get so excited when I actually get a chance to post, I forget to edit my posts. I actually grew up in the suburb that Mistry now resides in. I'd love to see him write a book or story about his experiences there.
674. TabouliJones - Feb. 11, 1999 - 9:04 AM PT
Case in point: Marlori should read marjori.
675. Pseudoerasmus - Feb. 11, 1999 - 9:19 AM PT
Can it be a coincidence that the Parsi tower of silence was mentioned twice in the Fray this week?
676. IrvingSnodgrass - Feb. 11, 1999 - 9:29 AM PT
jexster:
Westerners frequently get "Muslim" and "Middle Eastern" confused. Having spent most of my life here in Indonesia (and being a Muslim myself), I can tell you the differences are significant.
Where did you go in Indonesia? Will you be visiting again? If you have questions about Islam or Indonesia, feel free to post in the International thread or e-mail me at IrvingSnodgrass@the-fray.com.
677. DocBrown - Feb. 11, 1999 - 9:31 AM PT
Thanks for clearing that up, Irv. I was very confused, since an Islamic female friend of mine talks about going to the mosque all the time.
Her perspective on the role of women in her culture is very interesting. She feels that hers is a position of privilege and security, certainly not oppression.
678. ChristinO - Feb. 11, 1999 - 9:34 AM PT
What is the reasoning behind the separation of the sexes for worship? The first thing that came to my mind is probably not likely, but merely some personal oddity.
679. IrvingSnodgrass - Feb. 11, 1999 - 9:34 AM PT
Doc:
It's a common attitude -- my wife feels the same. I guess it depends on how society conditions one.
680. IrvingSnodgrass - Feb. 11, 1999 - 9:37 AM PT
Christin:
What's the reason for any religious traditions? It's tradition, and the Holy Qur'an says so.
681. ChristinO - Feb. 11, 1999 - 9:42 AM PT
Oh.....well, duh.
(While you're here I thought I'd let you know that this is the second time I've posted this. The first one disappeared.)
682. stostosto - Feb. 11, 1999 - 9:49 AM PT
I'm too sexy!
683. IrvingSnodgrass - Feb. 11, 1999 - 9:50 AM PT
Christin:
Slate is working on fixing the disappearing post problem. I'm sorry it's happening. I lose posts too, and have taken to copying each post before I hit the "post" button.
684. stostosto - Feb. 11, 1999 - 9:51 AM PT
Irv.
Are you a Muslim?
Why?
685. IrvingSnodgrass - Feb. 11, 1999 - 9:57 AM PT
sto:
I converted in 1981, before I got married. My wife's family requested (but did not require) it, and I wasn't attached to any religious beliefs.
686. stostosto - Feb. 11, 1999 - 9:57 AM PT
Better lose a post than a boast.
(No, I don't have anything to say at all. I'm just babbling. Typically female characteristic... which makes me utterly interesting, of course).
687. stostosto - Feb. 11, 1999 - 10:01 AM PT
Irv
That explains it - I couldn't seem to square it with my Irv-image. But that's fully an inadequacy on my part.
Your being Muslim is of course OK with me.
Though I am a rather fundamentalist atheist myself.
688. ChristinO - Feb. 11, 1999 - 10:20 AM PT
Stostosto,
I haven't found babbling to be a primarily feminine characteristic. I'm aware of the belief that women talk more than men but don't know how much truth there is in it. Assuming it were true I find that valuing "non-talking" over "talking" seems more about arbitrarily preferring the masculine to the feminine without regard to the actual merits of either behavior.
689. Mrtoner - Feb. 11, 1999 - 12:08 PM PT
Wendy "Shallow" Shalit, co-creator of this most ludricrous-of-all-time threads, is, at this very moment, on CNN on Talk Back Live. She's every bit the insipid fraud one would have expected from reading her commentaries. Check it out!
690. katewrath - Feb. 11, 1999 - 4:04 PM PT
Of Shalit & Modesty: I wonder if anyone on the Newsweek staff has pointed out to George Will that the first paragraph of his Defense of Wendy column made no sense. You know the one that begins by claiming that the resurgence in popularity of ballroom dancing and swing music is a sign that young people today crave more modesty? A) It's not ballroom dancing, it's swing dancing. We're talking the Lindy Hop, not the waltz. B) Swing anything=modesty ... is he out of his mind? How modest is it to show the entire world your knickers, wrap your legs around your partner's waist and continually rub groin regions? It might not be MTV"s The Grind, but it's certainly not the hokey pokey.
691. ChristinO - Feb. 11, 1999 - 4:14 PM PT
Will has obviously made the common and fatal mistake of thinking that anything one's grandparents did was chaste. How in the world does he think the following generations got here? What a moron.
692. chloel - Feb. 11, 1999 - 5:36 PM PT
Maybe George Will's grandparents were chaste and he's the result of a terrible mistake.
Speaking as a Young Person of today - compared to George Will, anyway - we all know that the hep cats and dollies were not the *modest* people of our grandparent's days. The modest people were dancing to "Love in Bloom", not "Minnie the Moocher"; the women didn't wear nearly so much paint; and I'm pretty darn sure they didn't expect to show their stocking-tops.
In a further frothing fit of accuracy, one doesn't *continually* rub groin regions in the Lindy; the Savoy style especially spends a lot of time with no lead but the hand. It's that restraint, that delicacy, that lends intermittent groin-rubbing the thrill that even Cab Calloway cannot give.
693. ChristinO - Feb. 11, 1999 - 5:47 PM PT
Everyone knows that incessant groin rubbing gives one a rash.
It's more fun than poison ivy, however.
I'll never forget overhearing my grandmother talking about being courted by my grandfather and the particular section of White Rock Lake that was frequented by couples that wanted to spark or "make whoopie".
I asked "What's makin' whoopie, Mamaw?" and she blushed and said "Oh that's when you go out to the deep water and shout "Whoopie! Whoopie!" I was five and it sufficed until I got better information elsewhere.
694. Seguine - Feb. 11, 1999 - 7:01 PM PT
"Maybe George Will's grandparents were chaste and he's the result of a
terrible mistake."
That is the funniest thing I've read in the Fray in a long, long time.
"I asked "What's makin' whoopie, Mamaw?" and she blushed and said "Oh
that's when you go out to the deep water and shout "Whoopie! Whoopie!"
A very earnest boy who for some bizarre reason had a crush on me in 9th or 10th grade once asked me the meaning of the word "twat". We were standing around in gym class at the time; I probably had just used the term to describe a nearby cheerleader.
I told him "twat" was a word one yelled at the top of one's lungs while hopping up and down in a circle. Wouldn't you know he proceeded to scream "twat" while smiling amiably and whirling about like a little bobbing tornado?
Which demonstration did not win my affection.
He became a born again Christian the following year.
695. Greystoke - Feb. 11, 1999 - 7:05 PM PT
Seguine
Good story, but I'm waiting for some snappy ending like:
"And his name was Ralph Reed."
or
"And we've been happily married for the past 15 years,"
696. CoralReef - Feb. 11, 1999 - 7:07 PM PT
So THAT'S where thumpers come from! It all makes sense now.
697. CoralReef - Feb. 11, 1999 - 7:22 PM PT
On the subject of female modesty, an Italian appeals court threw out the rape conviction of a man because the victim was wearing jeans and that fact necessitated that the sex was consensual.
The ruling said, "It is common knowledge ... that jeans cannot even be partly removed without the effective help of the person wearing them ... and it is impossible if the victim is struggling with all her might."
698. Seguine - Feb. 11, 1999 - 8:41 PM PT
"It is common knowledge ... that jeans cannot even be partly removed
without the effective help of the person wearing them ... and it is
impossible if the victim is struggling with all her might."
Hiphop couture obviously has not reached Italy just yet.
699. RustlerPike - Feb. 12, 1999 - 12:21 AM PT
ChristinO:
Imagine the interior of a mosque. Carpets wall to wall. Believers, male and female, squat in rows. Then comes the moment when everyone leans forward and places his face on the carpet. Male heads are inches away from female butts. Female heads are inches away from male butts. Is this an atmosphere conducive to religious fervor?
On a more serious note - in Judaism, at least, the tradition was extremely patriarchal, and I'd say the male bond, the tie that binds the male group, was a force stronger in many ways than that which binds the nuclear family. One's primary allegiance was to the tribe, or the nation, in other words - to 'the guys'. Prayer was a part of this: a male thing, almost as male as fighting wars.
There was no tradition equivalent to, say, going to church with the family on Sunday. Up to the time of the destruction of the Temple, there were no synagogues. Synagogues only evolved close to the time when the Temple was destroyed, I think, and replaced the Temple as the Jewish place of worship when the Temple was destroyed.
The Temple itself was divided into two prayer areas, separated by walls: the larger one, closer to the Inner Sanctum, was for men, the smaller one for women.
A synagogue is basically a substitute for the Temple: the Ark which houses the Torah scrolls is an echo of the Temple Ark, and the Synagogue itself faces Jerusalem. Similarly, the synagogue is divided into male and female areas, with at least a symbolic partition between them. The male area is always the one in the center, adjacent to the Ark, and the women's area is usually in the back, or off to the sides, or on a balcony. So maybe this is the basic reason for separation: the practice dates back to very early times - biblical times, actually.
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700. RustlerPike - Feb. 12, 1999 - 12:25 AM PT
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In the Orthodox ceremonies, there are any number of differences in ritual, too (starting with circumcision!): men wear prayer shawls and phylacteries, men say the blessing (hold tight!) "Blessed are You my Lord, our God, King of the World, Who did not make me a woman". The women say "...Who made me according to his wishes"! Men who are past their Bar Mitzvah are obligated to pray daily, I believe, women are not, etc.
By the way, when taking a dump or leak, one is obliged to bless God for "making me (with) hollow orifices".