3929. spudboy - April 15, 1999 - 3:43 PM PT
From the Lord Protect Us From Our Protectors Desk:
AM-DeLay-Sex Abuse,430
DeLay criticizes new professional views on child sex abuse
WASHINGTON (AP) — House Majority Whip Tom DeLay on Thursday accused the national organizations that represent psychiatrists and psychologists of adopting permissive attitudes on pedophilia and child sexual abuse.
Officials with the American Psychological Association and the American Psychiatric Association denied the Texas Republican's claims, attributing them to misunderstanding over scientific concepts and writings.
DeLay said he was "appalled and sickened" by a study published in the American Psychological Association's June 1998 bulletin. The findings have been prominently highlighted in recent weeks by radio therapist Laura Schlessinger on her show and Web site.
The Psychological Bulletin analyzed the findings of 59 earlier studies on child sexual abuse and concluded that the abuse was less damaging than generally believed for college students interviewed about childhood sexual experiences.
Citing findings that not all victims view their experiences negatively, the authors suggested replacing the term child sexual abuse with the more "value neutral" adult-child sex in cases where the young person had willingly engaged in the encounter.
DeLay said he and his wife Christine, who have worked for years to help abused children, view the study as "our worst nightmare come true."
Psychological Association spokeswoman Pam Willenz, whose organization represents 159,000 clinicians, reseachers and educators, said the passage cited by DeLay was "lifted out of context."
"The language in there may be a little free-flowing, but it's by no way condoning" child sexual abuse, Willenz said. (cont'd)
3930. spudboy - April 15, 1999 - 3:43 PM PT
(cont'd)
The Psychological Association said publication of research in its journals "in no way" constitutes endorsement of the findings. "APA's position is ... very clear: The sexual abuse of children is wrong and harmful to its victims."
DeLay also criticized the American Psychiatric Association, saying the latest revision of its diagnostic manual "quietly" redefined pedophilia as requiring a finding of anxiety or impairment by the subject.
But a Psychiatric Association official said DeLay has misunderstood the five-year-old revision of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.
"By definition if you are having sex with a kid, you are having significantly impaired relationships," said Dr. Harold Pincus, vice chairman of the task force responsible for revisions to the diagnostic manual.
3931. BobaFett - April 15, 1999 - 3:47 PM PT
That bastard! Trying to keep something as natural as pedophilia recognized as a serious sin!
These Goddamned Repugs are ruining our good times!
3932. spudboy - April 15, 1999 - 3:58 PM PT
The truth at last: Boba is actually Laura Schlessinger.
(The chief clue: He shares her gift for distorting scientific discussion.)
3933. BobaFett - April 15, 1999 - 4:02 PM PT
"Citing findings that not all victims view their experiences negatively, the authors suggested replacing the term child sexual abuse with the more "value neutral" adult-child sex in cases where the young person had willingly engaged in the encounter."
Yes, by all means Spudboy, let's be "value neutral" on the subject of pedophillia. After all, *some* kids like being molested. Musn't use words that carry any kind of suggestion of moral judgement to describe their taste for chicken.
3934. BobaFett - April 15, 1999 - 4:03 PM PT
Spudder:
Just curious. Do you have a personal stake in this? Do you feel you've been discriminated against for too long?
3935. spudboy - April 15, 1999 - 4:11 PM PT
Boba: No, other than that I've covered more than my share of child sex-abuse cases. Invariably, the problems are far more complex than their characterization by self-serving moralists of DeLay's variety. I appreciate that psychologists are trying to find ways to solve the problems by taking all of the complexities into consideration. You consider this liberal mushiness, but I for one am more interested in seeing the sexual abuse of children effectively addressed.
Your nasty insinuation is duly noted, though.
3936. BobaFett - April 15, 1999 - 4:17 PM PT
Goody. I hoped it would be noted. That's why I said it.
Maybe you're right. Maybe it would be better not to make pedophilliacs think that they're doing evil by molesting children, but rather are merely acting in accord with their sickness.
And certainly, let's get rid of that "value-charged" word, pedophilia. Adult-child sex has a much more pleasant ring to it.
Erotic, even.
3939. msgreer - April 15, 1999 - 5:01 PM PT
spudboy...
The scars left from child abuse are forever. There is nothing *neutral* about it.
I don't understand how one can say, for example, a father who sexually abuses his young daughter, could be described as anything but a horror. Are we now going to say the young child was *neutral* about the abuse. When this happens to the young child, it is not because they asked for it, they are victims. And it is a cruel experience.
Granted, those that abuse children are *sick* themselves
And if *they* can get *help* all the better.
But what about the emphasize on healing the scars of the children who have been abused.
Being in the medical profession myself, I don't find myself agreeing with all the APA and APA have to say.
I know of no adult friends who were abused by their fathers or uncles or next door neighbors as a child who would consider what happen to them as an activity they engaged in by choice.
3940. msgreer - April 15, 1999 - 5:03 PM PT
cont... I hate the idea child abuse would be given some flowery APA diagnosis.
I know this is not exactly what was posted.
These are just my own feelings.
3941. spudboy - April 15, 1999 - 6:26 PM PT
MsGreer: Well, I'm not exactly in favor of flowery APA analyses either if they give criminals an excuse for evil behavior. I am in favor of useful approaches to dealing with the problem that perhaps can identify illnesses before they reach the acting-out stage.
By way of example, in the recent case here in Seattle of Mary Kay LeTourneau, the activity (involving a teenage boy) clearly was consensual. While I vehemently disapprove of the schoolteacher's behavior, I find it extremely unuseful to lump her in with some of the truly creepy pedophiles whose cases I've covered.
I think the APA, and psychologists in general, are trying to deal with such nuances. When partisan ideologues like DeLay enter the picture, the serious work tends to go out the window.
3942. adrianne - April 15, 1999 - 6:31 PM PT
Msgreer
The study doesn't imply that it was the child's "choice."
Bobafett
You are not just a boor, you are beneath contempt.
Calling JJBeiner:
There was a longtime fraygrant who argued in favour of some child-adult sexual experiences. You two were friends of a sort.
Anyway, she and I had a rather intense argument about the subject. I wish she were here, she could comment on this. JJ, are you still in touch?
3943. msgreer - April 15, 1999 - 6:50 PM PT
spudboy... my biggest joy in life would be our society intervening prior to the troubled and mentally ill *acting out*.
There is alot of research which has helped detect who maybe predisposed to certain illnesses. (sorry I am not giving specific studies)
But you know people are scared what their insurance companies and their employees might do with this information. There are tests which can tell people if they maybe in line to contract bi polar disease, depression, Alzheimer's, breast cancer and on. Most people are not running to see what their genes may tell them.
Therefore,it is up to health care professionals to try to intervene when they see a child at risk. And not every parent is going to bring their child in for a consultation. So, what do the health care professionals do?
Identifying children at risk is a societal responsibility. Everyone that comes in contact with a child at risk has the responsibility to do something about it... go to the parent and talk, report it when necessary... I am rambing, sorry.
About Mary Kay, wasn't she diagnosed as bi-polar? I followed that case myself. If I remember correctly, the young boy involved always said it was a consenual relationship. Is the correct?
3944. spudboy - April 15, 1999 - 7:29 PM PT
MsGreer: I believe that's correct. I also generally agree with your comments.
3945. CalGal - April 15, 1999 - 7:36 PM PT
Actually, the only real problem I had is that they are dropping the term "abuse" if the child consented. I don't believe children can consent.
While pedophiles have *more* victims, I don't think it's legit to say that the damage done by the Letourneau's of the world is any less.
3946. spudboy - April 15, 1999 - 8:11 PM PT
CalGal: That's silly. Can you really believe the damage to a horny teenage boy who's lusting after his teacher is the same as that inflicted on a little girl cornered in a public restroom by a stalker? You manage to find moral equivalency in the strangest places.
3947. CalGal - April 15, 1999 - 8:18 PM PT
Spud,
I was focusing more on the issue of "consent". I don't know the percentages, but not all pedophilia (or even most) is cornering a little girl in a bathroom.
And he was an 12-year-old when it started, as I recall, which is hardly what your description of "horny teenage boy" conveys.
3948. BobaFett - April 15, 1999 - 8:43 PM PT
That kid is going to be fucked up for the rest of his life.
For one thing, he has a child at age thirteen, by a woman who's in prison.
For another thing, he won't be able to handle it emotionally.
It's fun to joke that she's the "Greatest Teacher in the World." But that kid is going to be in and out of therapy for his whole fucking life.
3949. CalGal - April 15, 1999 - 8:47 PM PT
Boba,
Oh, please don't get me started. I often think I will take an axe to the next moron who says, "But they are in *love*!"
3950. spudboy - April 15, 1999 - 8:49 PM PT
Well, I was speaking hypothetically, not about the LeTourneau case specifically; it's entirely possible for a teenager to entice someone into sex and for that person to be charged with child sex abuse on roughly the same level as a bathroom stalker, which seems out of kilter to me. However, I actually agree that the notion of employing consent as a criterion is extremely problematic, since the consent of a 5-year-old is of rather a different nature than that of a 14-year-old. But I will say that a pedophile given to molesting young children in fact inflicts a *great* deal more damage than one who engages older children.
3951. BobaFett - April 15, 1999 - 8:50 PM PT
CalGal:
The odd thing is: The woman is attractive. Go figure that, huh?
But this is going to put this kid through hell. I predict nothing but misery for the poor blighter.
3952. BobaFett - April 15, 1999 - 8:53 PM PT
"it's entirely possible for a teenager to entice someone into sex and for that person to be charged with child sex abuse on roughly the same level as a bathroom stalker, which seems out of kilter to me. "
That's why we have judges to set sentences according to the circumstances.
And the judges took that into consieration with Letourneau. She was warned either once or even twice, I believe, given probation. Only when she violated probation (the second time even, maybe) did they finally lock her up.
A molester who molests a 6 year old isn't going to get probation.
3953. CalGal - April 15, 1999 - 8:56 PM PT
Spud,
Would you say that a pedophile who is a one-time perpetrator (per victim) causes more or less damage than a pedophile who has sex with a victim repeatedly--even one who consents?
Frankly, I think that a child who suffers from a one-time event and their parents find out about it and act appropriately has a better chance of recovery than one who is molested over a long time by a loved one or someone who says that he or she "loves" the victim.
3954. CalGal - April 15, 1999 - 8:57 PM PT
The reason she got such a lenient sentence is because she's a woman and the victim was a boy.
3955. BobaFett - April 15, 1999 - 9:04 PM PT
What does everyone think of Spudboy's outrage at DeLay "Demagoging" the "complex and nuanced" issue of child abuse?
3956. spudboy - April 15, 1999 - 9:07 PM PT
Well, after she re-offended, it turned out to be not so lenient. But you may recall that I was disgusted by the role-reveral politics in the case too. More disgusting were the people in the general public willing to forgive her.
Incidentally, you may also recall that LeTourneau is a product of Republican family values. Her father, John Schmitz, was a longtime GOP ultra-conservative congressman from Orange County who ran for president on the American Independent ticket in 1972.
3957. spudboy - April 15, 1999 - 9:08 PM PT
Boba: No one really give a fuck what you think.
3958. CalGal - April 15, 1999 - 9:10 PM PT
Boba,
Oh, I dunno. I am of the firm opinion that molesters are created, not born. So calling them evil is pretty useless. Calling them "sick" is pretty useless, too, as it implies a cure that is generally not going to happen. So I would rather have seen a principled objection, particularly on the consent issue, than a fuming rant.
On the other hand, I hadn't heard of this yet, so maybe if he hadn't ranted, nothing would have happened.
Oh, and Spud:
"While I vehemently disapprove of the schoolteacher's behavior, I find it extremely unuseful to lump her in with some of the truly creepy pedophiles whose cases I've covered."
I disagree. They are all equally incurable, as far as I've read. The fact that she *could not* stay away from the kid, even with warnings, is just as indicative of illness as those others. Yes, she only has one victim and I'm not dismissing that in importance. But her victim is just as hurt.
3959. BobaFett - April 15, 1999 - 9:10 PM PT
Spudder:
But I'm asking what everybody *else* thinks. I know how important the herd is to you. I thought if I could enlist seven or eight names I could put you back on the straight and narrow.
How does it feel to be such a shill that you'll stoop to attacking people because they happen to feel strongly about child molestation?
3960. CalGal - April 15, 1999 - 9:14 PM PT
Spud,
"Incidentally, you may also recall that LeTourneau is a product of Republican family values. "
Unless you are implying that Republicans are more likely to be child molesters, what was the point of this statement?
3961. BobaFett - April 15, 1999 - 9:15 PM PT
That is the point. I would rather say his previous feigned outrage at my previous suggestion of a personal stake on his part is, well, rather hypocritical.
As usual.
But note that I don't go into a pose of outraged righteousness about it. It's a stupid thing to say, and it rolls off the back like light Spring rain.
3962. spudboy - April 15, 1999 - 9:19 PM PT
CalGal: I'm tweaking.
Boba: What outrage? I merely think you're a jerk who is not worth wasting my time on. You bore me, because your response is predictably partisan.
3963. JJBiener - April 15, 1999 - 9:19 PM PT
Adrianne - If you are still around, I am not sure who you are referring to.
3964. BobaFett - April 15, 1999 - 9:21 PM PT
And Cal:
The study is crank. What did they find? That the molested children, by the time they reached college age, were not *AS* psychologically scarred as they expected. (Although how scarred they expected them to be is anyone's guess.) Further, some of the molested children had not-horrible memories of their sexual adventures.
The conclusion it draws from these rather inconsequential facts?
That "pedophilia" should be replaced with the more "value neutral" term adult-child sex.
This is similar to discovering that children exposed to third-degree burns have recovered better than you'd expect by age 20. So you decide that maybe we should take a more "nuanced" view of the "complex" issue of third-degree burns being inflicted on children.
Perhaps in some circumstances it's even *good*. After all, in this topsy-turvy world, who's to say what's right and what's wrong?
PS: This is not just an issue for Laura Schlessinger and Tom DeLay. When this article came out-- a month ago --it was decried by psychiatrists and psychologists as well.
3965. spudboy - April 15, 1999 - 9:22 PM PT
Boba: That is to say, rather than trying to discuss the issue, you choose to accuse me of being sympathetic to molesters and perhaps even a molester myself. I haven't the time to waste on that shit.
3966. CalGal - April 15, 1999 - 9:22 PM PT
Boba,
"The odd thing is: The woman is attractive. Go figure that, huh?"
She was married and had four kids. It has nothing to do with it.
I believe I'd read that her dad molested her, but I can't remember now.
3967. BobaFett - April 15, 1999 - 9:24 PM PT
"You bore me, because your response is predictably partisan."
Sorry, Shillboy, but I didn't realize there was a partisan take on child molestation until you took a partisan shot at Tom DeLay for criticizing an article which suggests that maybe pedophilia ain't so bad.
Liberal makes a partisan charge---> Just telling it like it is
Conservative rebuts partisan charge---> Vicious, unthinking partisanship
uh huh.
3968. BobaFett - April 15, 1999 - 9:25 PM PT
P'raps we should take a more "nuanced" and "complex" view of rape. After all, many women, sociologists like Nancy Friday assure me, have rape fantasies.
3969. trouserPilot - April 15, 1999 - 9:26 PM PT
This charming theory was aired in TableTalk when the APA's report came out: The APA is slowly trying to legitimize pedophilia the same way it legitimized that other disgusting perversion: homosexuality.
It's the APA's slippery slope to unfettered sexual perversion! Hey, I like good long-range planning.
3970. CalGal - April 15, 1999 - 9:26 PM PT
Boba,
Oh, it doesn't surprise me that it was decried by shrinks as well. There are books and books on the issue of incest, child molestation, pediphilia, and just how irrelevant consent is. That's the part I object to--this issue that the kid's consent somehow makes the molestation "value-neutral".
And as I said to Spud, I have no real issue with the discovery that sexual molestation is not the same thing as a death warrant. In fact, I have believed for a while that the damage from sexual molestation is overestimated (in the way you describe, not that there is no damage at all) and the damage from physical abuse is underestimated.
3971. CalGal - April 15, 1999 - 9:27 PM PT
"The APA is slowly trying to legitimize pedophilia the same way it legitimized that other disgusting perversion: homosexuality."
Oh, yeah, I've seen everyone arguing this in the past 50 posts.
3972. trouserPilot - April 15, 1999 - 9:29 PM PT
"Oh, yeah, I've seen everyone arguing this in the past 50 posts."
????
Where did I say they were. I specifically cited TableTalk.
Nice reading comprehension.
3973. BobaFett - April 15, 1999 - 9:29 PM PT
Cal:
Well, *I* didn't say that there wasn't that much damage from molesting. The article said that the now-adult children weren't as bad off as commonly believed. There could still be a lot of damage.
And this is silly anyway. Yes, after ten or fifteen years, many people will be normal human beings with no lasting psychological symptoms. People have survived the *Holocaust,* for crying out loud, and then gone on to be well-adjusted people afterwards.
This does not mean that maybe an occasional Holocaust isn't so bad.
3974. JJBiener - April 15, 1999 - 9:31 PM PT
Spudboy - I am very disappointed in your posts tonight. Given recent events I would think you would be in great mood. Instead you are sniping at everyone and making ridiculous charges. What is up with you?
3975. BobaFett - April 15, 1999 - 9:31 PM PT
Trouser:
"The APA is slowly trying to legitimize pedophilia the same way it legitimized that other disgusting perversion: homosexuality."
That is the reason for the reaction to the article, Trouser. WHich isn't to say that homosexuality ISN'T normal. It's to say that Pedophilia SHOULD NOT go the way of homosexuality and be accepted as just some normal fun between consenting partners.
Or don't you agree?
3976. spudboy - April 15, 1999 - 9:33 PM PT
JJ: I get pissed off when I'm accused of being sympathetic to child molesters.
3977. spudboy - April 15, 1999 - 9:34 PM PT
And what ridiculous charges am I making?
3978. BobaFett - April 15, 1999 - 9:35 PM PT
PS:
It's not necessarily the APA, who have (I believe) been pretty firm that they don't endorse the article. But that would seem to be the thrust of the article. So maybe the APA isn't trying to legitimize pedophilia, but the authors would seem to be.
And no, this isn't based upon their *findings.* Assuming they used proper methodology, it's important to know that many people recover well from molestation as a child.
The problem is with their bizarre conclusion: That because children often do recover from molestation, maybe we should take a more "nuanced" and "complex" (read: "accepting") view of the "ambiguous" issue of child-adult sex, as they so coyly term it.
3979. trouserPilot - April 15, 1999 - 9:35 PM PT
"It's to say that Pedophilia SHOULD NOT go the way of homosexuality and be accepted as just some normal fun between consenting partners.
Or don't you agree?"
Boy are you dumb.
3980. BobaFett - April 15, 1999 - 9:37 PM PT
Trouser:
Why am I dumb? Do you disagree that pedophilia should be "normalized"? Or do you disagree that that's not the thrust of the article?
3981. spudboy - April 15, 1999 - 9:37 PM PT
Lessee ... I largely agree with MsGreer. I mostly agree with CalGal, but point out areas of difference. And I get annoyed when Boba suggests I'm a child molester.
Sorry you're disappointed, but this seems reasonable to me.
3982. CalGal - April 15, 1999 - 9:37 PM PT
tP,
"This charming theory was aired in TableTalk when the APA's report came out:"
I misread this. I thought you were saying "*This* charming theory", as in it was being proposed here. Sorry.
3983. BobaFett - April 15, 1999 - 9:40 PM PT
Shillboy:
Well, you suggested that as a Republican my children would almost certainly grow up sexually disfunctional, and I took no offense (and barely any notice) of *that.*
And I didn't *call* you a molester. I *asked* if you had a personal stake in the matter. You sure did seem hopping mad about Tom DeLay slamming the article, which, to me at least, seems a perfectly reasonable response.
3984. CalGal - April 15, 1999 - 9:41 PM PT
Actually, does anyone have a link to what the APA actually announced/found? The quote is bad enough--that any shrink would refer to consent as being relevant is unpleasant--but I'd be interested in reading the source.
3985. trouserPilot - April 15, 1999 - 9:41 PM PT
BobaFett™, you're dumb because:
a. you would give any credence or defend the notion that pedophilia can ever be "normalized," even through some insidious stealth campaign of legitimization
b. you have to ask whether I agree that pedophilia shouldn't be "normalized."
3986. JJBiener - April 15, 1999 - 9:41 PM PT
Cal - I deal with abused children everyday. The damage done by sexual molestation is NOT overestimated. The damage can be devastating. The good news in this is that humans, and children in particular, are resilient and are capable of remarkable healing. A child who is taken out of an abusive situation and put into a protected, nuturing environment can make a dramatic recovery. This is a tribute to the child's spirit, not an indicator that maybe the damage was not as serious as believed.
3987. JJBiener - April 15, 1999 - 9:45 PM PT
Spuds - I was disappointed by your attack on Delay, and your posts which seemed to indicate that you agreed with the conclusion that adult-child sexual relationships might not be harmful.
3988. CalGal - April 15, 1999 - 9:45 PM PT
Boba,
"The problem is with their bizarre conclusion: That because children often do recover from molestation, maybe we should take a more "nuanced" and "complex" (read: "accepting") view of the "ambiguous" issue of child-adult sex, as they so coyly term it."
Yes, that's pretty much my POV as well.
For one thing, recovery has a great deal to do with the victim, not the type of molestation that he or she suffered. Yet there seems to be a suggestion that the type of molestation should be a factor in determining whether or not a victim will suffer later. And then that this should factor into how pedophiles are handled by psychologists.
And suppose that *most* children who are the victim of a rape by a stranger recover more rapidly than those who are subject to intercourse from a parent for three years. I wonder how many people would think kindly of the rapist getting a slap on the wrist and treatment, while the parent goes to jail for ten years.
Not that I'd have any real problem with the latter, mind you.
3989. BobaFett - April 15, 1999 - 9:46 PM PT
TP:
A) Well, we're unlikely to have another Holocaust. But that doesn't mean, presumably, you wouldn't rush to slam an article which suggested that maybe a Holocaust isn't *really* such a bad thing.
B) Maybe not a good question. But YOU created the linkage -- between the normalization of homosexuality and the normalization of pedophilia. SInce I know you (of course) support the normalization of homosexuality, your post seemed to suggest that "right thinking" people would also support the normalization of pedophilia.
I don't believe you believe this. But this seemed to be the implication of your post. My question was intended to get you to decouple the two.
3990. JJBiener - April 15, 1999 - 9:47 PM PT
Spuds - Also you comment that Le Tourneau was the product of Repubican family values was completely uncalled for.
3991. trouserPilot - April 15, 1999 - 9:49 PM PT
BobaFett™
c. you misunderstood, wildly, the thrust of my original post.
3992. CalGal - April 15, 1999 - 9:51 PM PT
JJ,
"The damage done by sexual molestation is NOT overestimated. "
While I wasn't clear, I was really speaking more of the public at large than shrinks--although the fact that *any* shrink could discuss consent as if it matters is just silly.
But I was referring more to the fact that parental overreaction (of the sort that the child finds more terrifying than comforting) is due to the fact that sexual molestation seems to violate *them* as well as their kids. Which isn't doing their kids any good. As a country, we have very little spectrum for sexual molestation (nor should we), and a *wide* spectrum for physical abuse of children.
3993. BobaFett - April 15, 1999 - 9:53 PM PT
TP:
Oh, really? Let's take a look at it again:
"The APA is slowly trying to legitimize pedophilia the same way it legitimized that other disgusting perversion: homosexuality."
The end of the post is obviously ironic: You are obviously saying that the APA was *right* to legitimize homosexuality. By calling homosexuality a "disgusting perversion," you're making fun of people who hold such views.
So what on earth is your linkage supposed to suggest, then? By implication, it would seem that the same yahoos who called homosexuality a 'disgusting perversion' are now trying to demonize pedophilia. And of course these yahoos are wrong.
Trouser, maybe you didn't MEAN this, but you wrote it, babe, not me.
You give me another interpretation of your post. You wanted to take a shot at us "sexually repressive Calvinist types," right? Well, it's not my fault you decided to take you shot when we were discussing pedophilia.
3994. trouserPilot - April 15, 1999 - 9:57 PM PT
d. you quote me out of context and expect me to debate you.
3995. JJBiener - April 15, 1999 - 9:58 PM PT
Cal - You may have trouble believing this, but sexual abuse is far more serious than comparable physical abuse. Sexual abuse includes an aspect of emotional abuse that remains long after the physical scars have healed. Sexual abuse attacks a part of the child's psyche that physical abuse cannot touch.
3996. BobaFett - April 15, 1999 - 9:59 PM PT
e. You and Spudboy have both tried to politicize this and now are feeling awfully stupid you did so.
f. And now you're taking your balls and going home.
g. And I don't blame you in the least, because your knee-jerk "Sex is natural, sex is good/Repugs are a bunch of trembling sexual repressives" nonsense is completely out of place in this debate.
3997. trouserPilot - April 15, 1999 - 10:00 PM PT
e. you can't argue like an adult; you think you can win arguments by misrepresenting the people you're arguing with
3998. trouserPilot - April 15, 1999 - 10:01 PM PT
Five reasons is enough for today.
3999. BobaFett - April 15, 1999 - 10:02 PM PT
Trouser:
I have stated that I don't believe you MEANT what your quote suggested. Further, I have asked for the correct, intended interpretation.
I don't think you can make out a case of intentional misrepresentation here.
If you had a different intention, I've already asked for it. You've simply refused to provide it.
4000. trouserPilot - April 15, 1999 - 10:04 PM PT
4k?