5156. Jenerator - April 21, 1999 - 1:40 PM PT
Jade,
Didn't Ted Bundy claim that his addiction to pornography led to his sexually deviant serial killings? Playboy, Penthouse, Oui, and so on.
Those and the weirder books and films can be seen as aiding his criminal conduct.
5158. JADEgold - April 21, 1999 - 1:42 PM PT
Jen;
I'm off to the gym. But how in the world does looking at erotic pictures "aid" or "abet" someone in serial murder?
5178. elliot803 - April 21, 1999 - 2:19 PM PT
Jenerator:
"Didn't Ted Bundy claim that his addiction to pornography led to his sexually deviant serial killings? Playboy, Penthouse, Oui, and so on."
Not that I'm aware of. And even if this were true, so what? Are you proposing that Playboy magazine be banned?
5180. BoomerJeff - April 21, 1999 - 2:21 PM PT
It is true that Ted Bundy, in an interview in prison a few hours before his execution said that his addiction to porn led to his violence. I saw video tape of the interview which lasts about an hour.
5181. Jenerator - April 21, 1999 - 2:23 PM PT
Elliot,
Jade said "The key is finding that a book (or other media) can be found to have aided or abetted criminal conduct."
I thought of Bundy who claimed that various forms of pornography aided in his criminal conduct. Surely you understand that the snuff films he watched "helped" him in his deviant behavior.
5184. elliot803 - April 21, 1999 - 2:26 PM PT
Jenerator:
"I thought of Bundy who claimed that various forms of pornography aided in his criminal conduct. Surely you understand that the snuff films he watched "helped" him in his deviant behavior."
You were talking about Playboy. I ask again: Are you proposing to ban Playboy magazine? Or what?
5186. Jenerator - April 21, 1999 - 2:28 PM PT
Elliot,
I'm not talking about Playboy. I'm talking about snuff films.
5188. AuNaturel - April 21, 1999 - 2:30 PM PT
"It is true that Ted Bundy, in an interview in prison a few hours before his execution said that his addiction to porn led to his violence."
Now that really puts a bizarre spin on the word "addicted".
I suppose that was easier than admitting the truth, that he was simply a broken toy lacking the moral understanding that he had an obligation to change.
5189. elliot803 - April 21, 1999 - 2:31 PM PT
Jenerator:
Yes, you are talking about Playboy. You said: "Didn't Ted Bundy claim that his addiction to pornography led to his sexually deviant serial killings? Playboy, Penthouse, Oui, and so on."
What is your point? What are you suggesting be done about Playboy?
5190. AuNaturel - April 21, 1999 - 2:33 PM PT
Jenerator;
"Snuff" films are a myth. Bundy was looking for a way to displace blame. You confuse symptom with causality, he takes advatage of it.
5193. Jenerator - April 21, 1999 - 2:37 PM PT
Au,
If you're suggesting that people canNOT become addicted to pornography, than you need to wake up.
Elliot,
I'm talking about snuff films, not Playboy. (Bundy's addiction started with Playboy and escalated into much more deviant stuff)
5196. BoomerJeff - April 21, 1999 - 2:49 PM PT
I saw a video tape of Bundy being interviewed a few hours before his execution. He claims that his addiction to porn, starting with softer and evolving to harder core caused him to lose his mind and start killing.
5200. AuNaturel - April 21, 1999 - 3:10 PM PT
"If you're suggesting that people can NOT become addicted to pornography, than you need to wake up."
I am suggesting that using the term "addicted" to mean every obsessive-compulsive behavior that comes along destroys any value "addiction" has as a useful term. He may have been obsessed with pornography but he certainly wasn't addicted to it.
5201. Jenerator - April 21, 1999 - 3:13 PM PT
Au,
When one *has to* use pornographic material in order to fulfill sexual needs, and one's desires get increasingly out of control and deviant, wouldn't you say that it's addiction?
5203. AuNaturel - April 21, 1999 - 3:16 PM PT
"He claims that his addiction to porn, starting with softer and evolving to harder core caused him to lose his mind and start killing."
Of course he wants to shift the blame. Why shouldn't he?
5204. Jenerator - April 21, 1999 - 3:18 PM PT
Au,
I don't think that telling the world what helped to motivate him to kill 30 women is shrugging off blame.
5205. AuNaturel - April 21, 1999 - 3:27 PM PT
Jen:
That is probably obsessive or compulsive behavior. Addiction, if it is to have any meaning at all, refers to dependence on a substance which causes biochemical changes in the brain causing one to experience physical withdrawl symptoms when the substance is withheld.
Mr. Bundy is not suggesting that he got the screaming hebe gebies if he didn't get his daily dose. He just couldn't get it up to jack off without it.
5206. PincherMartin - April 21, 1999 - 3:28 PM PT
Re: Bundy
I read a book on him by a lady who had once worked with him named Ann Rule (I believe) . The book was _The Stranger Beside Me_. Some creepy reading, let me tell you. In it, she tells of a story that some claimed Bundy's grandfather use to torture and kill animals in front of the young kid.
The pornography claim is rubbish. No one starts reading Playboy, moves to Penthouse, then to Hustler, and then starts killing people because of the inevitable progression.
5208. benear - April 21, 1999 - 3:33 PM PT
Given that pornography is estimated to be a billion dollar industry, that would mean the corpses of about 300 women a day should be turning up in the woods.
5209. AuNaturel - April 21, 1999 - 3:34 PM PT
"I don't think that telling the world what helped to motivate him to kill 30 women is shrugging off blame."
That isn't what he did. His interview amouts to little more than "the devil made me do it". Don't blame me. Wasn't my fault. I'm not a psychologically defective person with no moral compass and a pathological lack of empathy who enjoyed causing girls pain and death. I just got addicted to porn.
5210. spudboy - April 21, 1999 - 3:39 PM PT
PM: You're right about Bundy. The pornography bit was a last stab at publicity before they executed him. Bundy's sickness arose out of a lot of factors (you correctly mention one), and his fascination with porn probably just served as gasoline for the fire. At the time he gave those interviews, he was desperately looking for a way to avoid execution; he seemed to be hoping for last-minute salvation by presenting himself as a poster boy for anti-porn causes.
BTW, don't rely too much on Ann Rule. Her Bundy book was OK, but it was a little loose with the facts, particularly regarding her own associations with Bundy (I know someone who in fact knew Bundy rather well -- dated him, in fact -- and Rule only knew him peripherally if at all, according to her.) And her armchair psychology was less than rigorous, shall we say.
5211. ChristinO - April 21, 1999 - 3:44 PM PT
If looking at a naked woman made people psychotic the human race would have died out almost as soon as it began.
5212. PincherMartin - April 21, 1999 - 3:46 PM PT
Spudboy --
"BTW, don't rely too much on Ann Rule. Her Bundy book was OK, but it was a little loose with the facts, particularly regarding her own associations with Bundy (I know someone who in fact knew Bundy rather well -- dated him, in fact -- and Rule only knew him peripherally if at all, according to her.) And her armchair psychology was less than rigorous, shall we say."
I don't really take those kinds of books too seriously. As I remember it, I was stuck someplace (a cabin in Lake Tahoe, I think) with nothing else to read except that and a Louis Lamour novel -- her book won out.
I'm curious, what did she [the woman who dated him] say about Bundy?
5213. CalGal - April 21, 1999 - 3:47 PM PT
Spud,
On the other hand, why should one rely at *all* on someone who dated Ted Bunday?
5214. benear - April 21, 1999 - 3:48 PM PT
Just a guess: he couldn't get it up and was a very bad lay.
5215. CalGal - April 21, 1999 - 3:49 PM PT
That's why he should rely on her? Hmm.
5216. CalGal - April 21, 1999 - 3:49 PM PT
I mean, I didn't realize you knew that much about Spud.
5219. spudboy - April 21, 1999 - 3:51 PM PT
PM: Actually, she declines to talk about it much, since the whole thing traumatized her a great deal, except to say that his charm and good looks masked some real sickness -- family-derived, she thought -- that emerged in key moments (which I guess isn't surprising in retrospect, but she got to witness it firsthand) and to tell me that Ann Rule is a crass self-promoter.
5220. benear - April 21, 1999 - 3:51 PM PT
LOL CG. I barely know spud. So SB, any offense taken is entirely the fault of Officer CalGal.
5221. AuNaturel - April 21, 1999 - 3:52 PM PT
"If looking at a naked woman made people psychotic the human race would have died out almost as soon as it began."
Yes. Naturist resorts would be massive blood baths.
5222. spudboy - April 21, 1999 - 3:54 PM PT
CalGal: Ted was a very handsome man who charmed a lot of women. He worked for the campaign of GOP Gov. Dan Evans, had a good job, was well educated, volunteered for a rape-crisis hotline. Dating him was one thing; continuing to date him for very long was another, and she didn't.
5223. benear - April 21, 1999 - 3:56 PM PT
I recently saw that made for TV movie about Bundy starring Mark Harmon. (OK, I have no taste when bored and channel surfing) It pretty much made the point he was a manipulator to the end even though it didn't specifically address the porn angle.
5224. CalGal - April 21, 1999 - 3:56 PM PT
Spud,
Yes, but if she didn't date him for very long, it's unlikely she knew him very well. So I'm wondering how you can rely on her word about Ann Rule's relationship with Ted Bundy.
5225. benear - April 21, 1999 - 3:58 PM PT
Gee, shouldn't this thread be called "News of 10 Years Ago"?
5226. cllrdr - April 21, 1999 - 4:05 PM PT
But very fascinating news, b.
History tends to repeat itself you know.
5227. ChristinO - April 21, 1999 - 4:05 PM PT
AuNat,
Good point. I haven't been to such a resort since I was a child, but having on occasion witnessed large groups of naked adults together I'd say that killing and bloodshed was the last thing on any of their minds.
5228. AuNaturel - April 21, 1999 - 4:06 PM PT
Really? How young were you?
5229. spudboy - April 21, 1999 - 4:07 PM PT
No, CalGal, you misunderstand. She and Bundy moved in the same circle of friends. She knew him for much longer than the period of time she dated him. After she called it off, he continued to tell her he wanted to be her friend, blah blah blah. She carries a certain amount of guilt because she knows that she was one in a series of romantic refusals, one of which -- a fiance who broke off her engagement with Bundy -- seems to have been the triggering event that sparked his first killing.
I also know about Ann Rule's proclivities for stretching her own credentials from others in the writing biz here in Seattle. But she makes nice little living at churning out true-crime books -- she has a great little waterfront house on Bainbridge Island that looks out on the Seattle skyline -- so the self-promotion obviously has been effective. I don't begrudge her that. But this isn't the only case where she's bent the facts a bit.
Again, let me point out that getting a sense of a person's credibility often comes from talking to them face to face. It may not seem scientific enough for you, but I work from my instincts a great deal.
5230. ChristinO - April 21, 1999 - 4:09 PM PT
About four or five when "nudist colonies" were the IN thing for a lot of my parents' friends.
5231. spudboy - April 21, 1999 - 4:11 PM PT
I should also add that the person in question is now a single mother who raises her two children quietly in their neighborhood while working at a basic paper-shuffling job. Very few people know about her association with Bundy. She certainly has never tried to profit from it. Like by writing a book titled, "The Stranger Beside Me."
5232. cllrdr - April 21, 1999 - 4:12 PM PT
Well I'm keepin' my clothes on at your party, Christin!
5233. ChristinO - April 21, 1999 - 4:14 PM PT
Cllr,
Damn! I was gonna charge the neighbors for a looksee!
5234. AuNaturel - April 21, 1999 - 4:14 PM PT
I used to be the Libertarian SIG coordinator for the Naturist Society. I ended up leaving that group for the same reason I left the Libertarian Party. I don't deal well with fanatics or purists.
5235. ChristinO - April 21, 1999 - 4:15 PM PT
It's all the more apparent when they're naked but for the fire of fanaticism burning in their gaze.
5236. AuNaturel - April 21, 1999 - 4:16 PM PT
I haven't made any such promises...
5237. ChristinO - April 21, 1999 - 4:18 PM PT
We're waaaaaay too casual for a dress code at my house.
5238. AuNaturel - April 21, 1999 - 4:19 PM PT
Talk about fanaticism. There were people walking around wearing nothing but sandals and oil when there was frost on the ground. I have long since limited my naturism to beaches, hot springs, isolated swimming holes and such. And night time in the doughboy in my back yard.
5239. ChristinO - April 21, 1999 - 4:23 PM PT
Who is the photographer who made all the picture books of naturist communities and circus peculiars?
5240. AuNaturel - April 21, 1999 - 4:25 PM PT
There were several that I am aware of. Dianne Arbus comes to mind. Have you seen any of the work of Jock Sturgis?
5241. ChristinO - April 21, 1999 - 4:31 PM PT
Arbus! That's the one I was thinking of. I don't believe I've seen any Jock Sturgis.
I get the feeling that any moment now we're going to be chastized for wandering far off topic.
5242. benear - April 21, 1999 - 4:33 PM PT
My pet ass is named Phillipe. THAT is off topic.
5243. ChristinO - April 21, 1999 - 4:37 PM PT
My friend had a pet ass once.....
....until she divorced him.
5244. cllrdr - April 21, 1999 - 4:37 PM PT
Not really. Isn't this thread called "Nudity of the Day"?
5246. ChristinO - April 21, 1999 - 4:40 PM PT
Well, I'll defintely say that this incident has left a lot of people with their asses hanging naked in the breeze.
5247. benear - April 21, 1999 - 4:42 PM PT
Ohhhhh. Nice recovery ChrisO!
5248. ChristinO - April 21, 1999 - 4:45 PM PT
Thank you. I was rather impressed myself.
5249. AuNaturel - April 21, 1999 - 4:46 PM PT
Just a couple days ago we were arguing over whether visible genitalia on a photo of a minor constituted child pronography. Jock Sturgis was one of the photographers so attacked. So was David Hamilton
5250. benear - April 21, 1999 - 4:47 PM PT
Cue the Maplethorpe debate. ACTION!
5251. AuNaturel - April 21, 1999 - 4:48 PM PT
So It's not completely off topic.
5252. ChristinO - April 21, 1999 - 4:49 PM PT
Is Sturgis the one who has photographed the same people over the course of their whole lives or is that Hamilton?
Nudity isn't obscene. Naked children aren't child pornography. Good Christ people have dirty minds.
5253. benear - April 21, 1999 - 4:50 PM PT
Especially when it comes to children. What does that say about the human race?
5254. AuNaturel - April 21, 1999 - 4:51 PM PT
Not everyone agrees
5255. AuNaturel - April 21, 1999 - 4:52 PM PT
That was Sturgis. Most of his photography was at the beach at Cape D'Age in France or a commune in No. Cal.
5256. benear - April 21, 1999 - 4:53 PM PT
Shit. I am so embarrassed to have been born and raised in the Wheat State.
5257. ChristinO - April 21, 1999 - 4:55 PM PT
What exactly do these people consider sexually explicit? Nudity itself or are these children engaged in sexual acts?
Just think of all the religious art that needs to be scrubbed clean of the foul lasciviousness of cherubim.
5258. AuNaturel - April 21, 1999 - 4:58 PM PT
Here is J.S. side of the issue
5259. AuNaturel - April 21, 1999 - 5:02 PM PT
Sturgis does formal nude portraits with an 8x10 view camera for chrissakes, often with the parents in the very same shot. no action whatsoever.
I have a copy of the Forbidden book "'Radiant Identities'" by Sturgis. Maybe I'll bring it to the Party. And one by David Hamilton. I am astounded at the people who will proclaim something pornographic withoput ever having seen it.
5260. cllrdr - April 21, 1999 - 5:08 PM PT
That's because pornography is the "said" rather than the seen. We "hear" something is pornographic -- theryby coloring all views of it, whatever they may have been otherwise. Mapplethorpe, for instance, deals with sex and and sexuality. But I have never even been *remotely* aroused by any of his pictures.
5261. ChristinO - April 21, 1999 - 5:09 PM PT
I read this interview last year in the LA Weekly, I think. I have to agree with Sturges particularly regarding age of consent and the sexual victimization of children that we allow and encourage by our societies Puritanical fanaticism.
Unfortunately it is time for me to hit the road.
Have good evening!
5262. ChristinO - April 21, 1999 - 5:12 PM PT
Oh my god.
I can't believe I ended the day with an apostrophe violation.
Yes, AuNat, please do bring your books.
Now I'm really gone!
5263. benear - April 21, 1999 - 5:15 PM PT
I was living in Cincinnati the year of the Maplethorpe controversy there. The police arrested the Director of the Contempory Arts Center. The result: it was the most widely attended art exhibit in recent memory. People lined up around the block, the sheriff and county prosecuter looked like idiots and Cincinnati was the national laughingstock.
Yes, there is hope, on occasion.
BTW: the Maplethorpe photos of children are pornographic only in the dirty minds of the Party of God. The homo-content photos are mostly political. The flower photos are very erotic.
5264. AuNaturel - April 21, 1999 - 5:19 PM PT
IMHO the question of whether then children involved in the photos were abused or taken advantage of is paramount. For that you need a working definition of abuse, unless you argue that a photo of a nude minor is inherently abusive. In that case I'd strongly disagree and demand you demonstrate to me how the child in question was harmed.
5268. JJBiener - April 21, 1999 - 8:49 PM PT
In the war on pornography, St. Louis had George Peach. He was the prosecutor in the early 80's when the video revolution was taking hold. Every strip mall had a video store and most were privately owned. Most of them had a section of adult videos.
Mr Peach decided that these videos violated the state's obscenity laws. He chose a video store owner to use as an example. He had the store raided and 10 videos were used to charge the store owner. The videos were standard adult movie fare with no animals, children, violence, etc.
The law in Missouri used the "community standards" clause to determine obscenity. The store owner argued that the videos could not possibly violate those standards since the adult videos made up 40% of his rentals. The jury bought the owners argument. The jury decided that 9 out of the 10 did not violate the law. They were divided on the 10th.
One would think that Mr Peach would have slipped quietly off to the sidelines. Mr Peach, however, announced that despite the fact that he lost in court, he was going to continue to vigorously prosecute anyone who offered adult videos, even the nine videos that the jury found to be legal. Peach promised to continue to prosecute until he found a jury that would convict.
The result is that it became virtually impossible to obtain an adult video in St. Louis even though they were perfectly legal. One man was able to abuse the obscenity law and pervert it to his own desires.
BTW, George Peach is a life-long Democrat.
5271. doogie - April 21, 1999 - 10:35 PM PT
ChristinO: Out of curiosity, do you see any contradiction between this statement:
"5211. ChristinO - April 21, 1999 - 3:44 PM PT
If looking at a naked woman made people psychotic the human race would have died out almost as soon as it began."
and this one:
"5252. ChristinO - April 21, 1999 - 4:49 PM PT
Is Sturgis the one who has photographed the same people over the course of their whole lives or is that Hamilton?
Nudity isn't obscene. Naked children aren't child pornography. Good Christ people have dirty minds."
Pornography is more about power relationships than "naked women." To the extent that pornography increases objectification and is accepted as a replacement for inter-personal interraction it could have an affect on anti-social tendencies.
5358. ChristinO - April 22, 1999 - 9:34 AM PT
Doogie Re:Message #5272
There is no contradiction between the two statements. Let me simplify them:
- The sight of a naked woman does not turn a person into a psychopath.
- A picture of a naked child is not inherently pornographic.
Your post doesn't address what I said and you go on to make a rather uninformed statement about "pornography". Some erotica is about power and some isn't. Some is misogynist and some isn't. You talk about the objectification of women as if sexually explicit materials were the only things that objectify women and as if only women are objectified. It sounds as if you let somebody tell you what to think about it.....a not too objective somebody.
5620. Jenerator - April 22, 1999 - 6:12 PM PT
Pincher martin
(regarding Ted Bundy)
The pornography claim is rubbish. No one
starts reading Playboy, moves to Penthouse,
then to Hustler, and then starts killing
people because of the inevitable
progression.
I know someone *personally* on death row, who was addicted to pornography. His thrills began with Playboy, then to Penthouse, then to the hardcore stuff, then to the films, then to the blow-up dolls, then to the prostitutes, then to raping and murdering a woman. He even broke into a porn shop, because he "had to have fresh material", AFTER he murdered her.