2. IrvingSnodgrass - Nov. 23, 1998 - 10:48 AM PT
A recent series in The Washington Post looked at The Myth of the Melting Pot... immigration in the USA. The central question posed by the series was:
"As the country experiences one of the most massive immigrations in modern history, much of the public debate has focused on whether the arrival of 1 million newcomers a year, legal and illegal, is a good or a bad thing – whether the cost of educating immigrant children or feeding their poor is worth the benefit that comes from allowing them in. Whether, in the most simplistic terms, immigrants are a net gain or net drain, not only to the economy but to American culture and lifestyle. "
What do *you* think?
3. IrvingSnodgrass - Nov. 23, 1998 - 10:50 AM PT
I forgot to mention... I highly recommend reading the Washington Post series I linked to above, as a jumping off point for this discussion.
And thanks to ScotusAntonovich for suggesting the topic and pointing me to the article.
4. ScotusAntonovich - Nov. 23, 1998 - 10:54 AM PT
"Are immigrants a good or a bad thing for the USA?"
Yes. However, one problem I've always had is counting people in this country illegally as "immigrants". They are *not* immigrants. They are criminals who need to be deported to their own country and apply for membership like the people who bother to do it the right way.
Making Americans pay for these illegal is like making a burglar a cup of coffee after they rob your house.
5. marjoribanks - Nov. 23, 1998 - 10:59 AM PT
Scooter,
Personally, I think you should be made responsible for making and serving coffee to all illegal immigrants to the USA.
6. marjoribanks - Nov. 23, 1998 - 10:59 AM PT
And you can start with my butler.
7. ScotusAntonovich - Nov. 23, 1998 - 11:00 AM PT
What time is good for you banks?
8. marjoribanks - Nov. 23, 1998 - 11:02 AM PT
Well, if you're going to be reasonable Scooter, you can stay.
I suggest that the test for citizenship that immigrants have to take in the USA be administered to *every* citizen of this country at the age of 18. Those who fail should immediately be deported therby making place for people who are serious about being American.
9. cllrdr - Nov. 23, 1998 - 11:07 AM PT
Immigrants are a good thing.
10. JaDeGoLd - Nov. 23, 1998 - 11:11 AM PT
The more immigrants, the better.
11. marjoribanks - Nov. 23, 1998 - 11:13 AM PT
Dear Mr. Snodgrass,
Cllrdr has definitively answered any question there may have been with regard to immigration to the USA in his post #9.
I suggest that this thread be killed to make way for a thread on "emigrants: which country would you like to move to tomorrow?" or possibly "hughgrants: are they all prats or what"?
Thanking you,
Marjoribanks
12. 109109 - Nov. 23, 1998 - 11:13 AM PT
Go, immigrants, go!
Yeah, immigrants!
13. ScotusAntonovich - Nov. 23, 1998 - 11:14 AM PT
Re: Message #8, marjoribanks.
"I suggest that the test for citizenship that immigrants have to take in the USA be administered to *every* citizen of this country at the age of 18. Those who fail should immediately be deported therby making place for people who are serious about being American."
Cute hyperbole. But, where would you deport people who have been here for generations and are basically mutts? For example, I have several different "heritages" in my composition from several different countries - none of which I've even visited.
But, I have no problem with granting citizenship to any and all children born to legal citizens of this country. Does any sane person not?
14. 109109 - Nov. 23, 1998 - 11:19 AM PT
Deport all mutts to France.
15. JaDeGoLd - Nov. 23, 1998 - 11:19 AM PT
This thread is DOA.
Here's the summary: Illegal immigrants--bad. Legal immigrants---good, if they're not too strange and embrace supply side economics. Debate on fitting torture of illegal immigrants or legal immigrants we find objectionable. Is not. Is too.
End of thread.
16. marjoribanks - Nov. 23, 1998 - 11:21 AM PT
Mutts should be deported to North Korea, where they have a food crisis.
17. bubbaette - Nov. 23, 1998 - 11:26 AM PT
But not cute Mutts. They should get a tv sitcom.
18. Ronski - Nov. 23, 1998 - 11:34 AM PT
1. Close down the welfare offices.
2. Open the borders.
19. ScottLoar - Nov. 23, 1998 - 11:38 AM PT
Controlled immigration vetted by authorities who limit the number and extent of kin the immigrant once become a citizen may sponsor is good for the USA and consistent with our traditions. If the numbers of immigrants in whole or from any particular country become too great the time needed for successful assimilation into society lengthens and strains the surrounding communities.
Illegal immigrants must be stopped and deported: "Federal officials... announced 21 arrests in connection with a 'flesh cartel'... bringing thousands of illegal immigrants from India and other nations... for fees of more than $20,000 a person. The cartel smuggled more than 12,000 individuals, mostly Indian men, into the U.S. over the last three years, generating more than $200 million." - Chicago Tribune, Saturday, November 21, 1998, Section 1. The "snake heads" of Guangzhou and Fujien provinces in China run similar cartels, with the same consequence: those smuggled wind up in stash houses until their fees - usually $25-30K - are paid off, either by family members or through sweatshop labour or prostitution.
20. ScottLoar - Nov. 23, 1998 - 11:42 AM PT
JadeGold, I for one wish your snap judgment (Message #15) applied to the political threads which go on, and on, and on...
21. Wombat - Nov. 23, 1998 - 11:51 AM PT
To a certain extent (more than many probably think), illegal immigration is a demand-driven force. Rather than wasting time and resources on "defending" the border, INS should concentrate on those who hire illegal immigrants. Let the Californians do their own damn gardening. Fewer jobs and (eventually) fewer illegals.
There may be a price to pay, however. How much more would certain goods and services cost, if the supply of illegals (who will work for less) dries up?
22. ScottLoar - Nov. 23, 1998 - 11:57 AM PT
" '(The illegals) were ordered by unscrupulous businesses that wanted cheap labor and wanted labor that had to take whatever conditions there were', said U.S. Attorney Paul Coggins of Dallas, where Operation Seek and Keep suspects will be prosecuted.
"... (Coggins) added that he expects several American businesses will be charged in connection with the smuggling." - Ibid.
23. JaDeGoLd - Nov. 23, 1998 - 12:09 PM PT
SL;
The problem of illegal immigration is much like the War on Drugs. We're attacking the wrong end of the problem--the supply. We should concentrate efforts on the demand.
Why do illegal immigrants come to the US? Because there are jobs. Jobs provided by US businesspeople who don't want to pay the prevailing wage and benefits. Talk of closing borders and harsh treatment of illegals is treating the symptom, not the cause.
24. JaDeGoLd - Nov. 23, 1998 - 12:11 PM PT
SL;
I believe you meant "Fukien" as opposed to "Fujien."
25. cllrdr - Nov. 23, 1998 - 1:15 PM PT
Arrest, convict, and jail all company owners whose businesses depend on "illegal immigrant" labor.
How's that grab you Scottie?
26. Ronski - Nov. 23, 1998 - 1:18 PM PT
Jade,
By "prevailing," do mean the legal minimum wage?
27. Ronski - Nov. 23, 1998 - 1:18 PM PT
...do *you* mean, that is.
28. cllrdr - Nov. 23, 1998 - 1:19 PM PT
"She was not a person but a whole kind of person, the ones who crossed the ocean, who brought with us to America the villages of Russia and Lithuania -- and how we struggled, and how we fought, for the family, for the Jewish home, sot that you would not grow up *here*, in this strange place, in the melting pot where nothing melted."
-- Tony Kushner,"Angels in America: Millennium Approaches," Act 1, Scene 1.
29. Ronski - Nov. 23, 1998 - 1:24 PM PT
Eventually, it melts. It's just that the heat is on low.
30. marjoribanks - Nov. 23, 1998 - 1:29 PM PT
Excellent quote cllrdr.
It points to the fact that all immigration to the USA is not about "jobs."
Obviously a great number of immigrants are drawn to the US by economic opportunities, but there are millions who come here for other reasons.
I myself became an American citizen largely because the Indian passport was a pain in the ass and I couldn't possibly travel with suitable ease for the career I wanted.
31. FreeToChoose - Nov. 23, 1998 - 1:44 PM PT
Wow, what a pleasure to find an issue on which Jade is correct. I agree with Message #10 and Message #23
I'm not quite ready to agree with her post where she claims there is nothing to say. I (ahem) think I have something to say on the issue.
32. DocBrown - Nov. 23, 1998 - 1:52 PM PT
I suppose legal immigrants are okay . . . until we can invent Artificially Intelligent robots to do all the work for us. Thereafter we won't have any use for any immigrants, and we should never allow anyone to move to the United States ever again.
As long as their labor is a valueable resource that we need, I say keep the door open.
33. FreeToChoose - Nov. 23, 1998 - 2:00 PM PT
I agree with marjoribanks, that the notion of melting point, while graphic, is inaccurate. I would even say that it is not a desirable goal.
I'm sure many have heard the "salad" analogy, which is better than the "melting pot" analogy, but I still like the analogy I read in one of my elementary school textbooks.
That textbook pointed out the inaccuracy of the "melting pot" analogy, and suggested a "stew pot" as a better goal. We put many different items into a stew pot-carrots and onions and potatoes and meat. Each item by itself would be a bit bland, but when combined, they make a delicious stew. The stew does not combine all the tastes into a single, average taste. Each item retains its own distinctive taste, yet is improved by the addition of flavors form other items. In the same way, our country ought to strive, not to agglomerate all people into a single mold, but to build a better society, reflecting the unique cultural backgrounds of all of its citizens.
Even if we like this analogy, I would immediately concede it is still a goal, not an accomplishment.
34. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 23, 1998 - 2:04 PM PT
The logic that says more immigrants, the better ignores one thing --
the impact of low-skill immigrants on the wages of low-skilled workers. I don't think the impact is all that great now, but more low-skill immigrants certainly wouldn't have less impact.
(This is a different question of whether bringing in more low-skill immigrants lowers GDP. It doesn't. It raises it. But that says nothing about the impact on wages.)
35. ScottLoar - Nov. 23, 1998 - 2:08 PM PT
JadeGold re Message #23, Message #24, actually supply and demand must be treated because " '(m)any immigrants entering the country illegally are no longer doing so on their own or in small makeshift groups but through well-organized, well-financed, international criminal networks,' (Immigration and Naturalization Service Commissioner Doris) Meissner said." -Ibid. And the lure of illegals entering the US and some other countries like Germany, or Mexico for Guatemalans, remains the hopes of a better life than what they are leaving which is mostly for, yes, the money. Those who knowingly employ illegal labour should be criminally prosecuted, which is going to keep local and federal legal teams busy as many of these illegals, unable to speak any but their native languages and without the benefit of family and friends, are dependent on the dubious kindness of the resident native communities for work and shelter.
No, I intended Fujian and Guangdong.
36. cartman69 - Nov. 23, 1998 - 2:08 PM PT
PE:
I seem to recall that you once argued with yourself (using two different handles) about immigration. Do you have this archived somewhere?
37. ChristiPeters - Nov. 23, 1998 - 2:34 PM PT
ftc -
Well, it's a good thing I caught up on my reading before I posted. I was going to do the salad/stew analogy.
Oh well, too little, too late, as ususal.
38. ScottLoar - Nov. 23, 1998 - 2:34 PM PT
America may not be a melting pot but American culture is very powerful as witness the Americanization of the children of immigrants to the extent they are indistinguishable from those already well established for the past several generations, a rapidity I think unequaled by any other country. Within less than one generation the most salient aspects of the original immigrant forebear is diminished or lost - language, religion, many of the holidays, leaving mostly only special foods untouched. This is not only for reason that immigration, legal or extralegal, to the US is usually by choice but that Americanization is powerful.
39. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 23, 1998 - 2:41 PM PT
Cartman69 (Message #36)
Yes, I'm sure I have that somewhere.
All the same, no study by an academic economist has ever found a significant impact on native wages due to current immigration flows. This article on immigration and earnings inequality summarises the findings of recent academic research. However, you will notice that each study does find a small impact, just as there is a small impact of international trade on wage inequality. Larger immigration flows can be expected to exert a larger impact. That's why I say that the dictum "the more immigrants, the better" is probably an uninformed opinion.
40. CalGal - Nov. 23, 1998 - 2:47 PM PT
I agree with JadeGold, although Wombat stated all the issues most clearly in Message #21.
Immigrants come to America to work. If we don't want them, then penalize those who hire them.
Of course, I'm working in a company right that is about 50% illegal Russian immigrants, with another 30% on those ridiculous visas (H6)? So start with the gardeners and the maids, please.
41. cartman69 - Nov. 23, 1998 - 3:32 PM PT
PE:
I'm inclined to agree with you. I think the US is at the point (especially in CA) where it just doesn't make sense to allow an infinite number of unskilled economic refugees. And yes, the farms & ranches hiring illegal braceros should definitely be hit, and hit hard.
As far as *skilled* illegals, same thing. There are plenty of American computer programmers who are shit out of luck, because they won't work as cheap as someone on an H6 might.
42. CalGal - Nov. 23, 1998 - 4:02 PM PT
Cart,
"There are plenty of American computer programmers who are shit out of luck, because they won't work as cheap as someone on an H6 might."
Hmm. Not true, actually. The real issue is that there is a serious dearth of skilled programmers and that they are legitimately as expensive as they need to be, since the market pays for them. Were companies able to lure expensive programmers away from their existing companies, they would. Generally speaking, average every day programmers are not brought over from Russia or India.
However, I agree that the H6 visa is an abomination and yet another way in which the white-collar world can skate where the blue-collar one cannot. What is the difference, really, between an H6 visa for a programmer and one for a maid?
43. cartman69 - Nov. 23, 1998 - 4:08 PM PT
Cal:
Agreed. I get irritated though, at the likes of TJ Rodgers, who keeps lobbying the gov't to increase the numbers allowed under H6, supposedly because there aren't enough qualified homegrown personnel. I don't believe that for a second. The real problem I have with it, in general, is the idea that CA's population is supposed to hit 40 million in the next 5-10 years! That's simply enough people here, imo. Let 'em move to Arizona or Nevada.
44. CalGal - Nov. 23, 1998 - 4:24 PM PT
Cart,
It is the H6 that is an abomination, IMO. If TJ wants to justify more programmers, he can bring them in on green cards. But the H6 loophole is ridiculous.
As for the rest, I know so few programmers that aren't working. And I've only read articles on H6 employees and haven't studied it in depth. But I believe that Silicon Valley is the primary offender in this regard? So it seems to me that it really is a dearth in programmers that is causing it. There would be more general resentment if it weren't true, and the cost of programmers would be dropping. Neither of which has happened yet. And people with liberal arts degrees are still being hired as programmers. (that's a joke for other readers here, from the Lib Ed thread.) Also, I believe that there was a study--again, I'm only talking about this area--done in which they established that somewhere in the neighborhood of 80% of the people who were laid off in the early 90s around here got jobs in less than a year. The rest, I believe, moved away or had decided to start their own business. Relying on memory, but the statistics were huge.
The one legitimate area for bitching is age discrimination. There is no question that any manager would take a 24-year-old doctorate from India with no experience over a 50-year-old man (or woman) who had managed programmers for the last ten years. But that is more about age and perception than cost, really.
As for Arizona and Nevada--people will move there, eventually. You'll be able to tell when they start bitching about the lousy ex-Californians driving up the housing prices.
45. cartman69 - Nov. 23, 1998 - 4:29 PM PT
Cal:
I believe that has been happening in Vegas for a few years now. They've experienced phenomenal growth, and a lot of it is ex-Californians, crowded out of their home state.
It's not a matter of whether the immigrants are foreign, in my case. I don't care if they're from Kansas. We're full; more just detracts from the quality of life here even further.
46. elliot803 - Nov. 23, 1998 - 5:32 PM PT
CalGal:
"It is the H6 that is an abomination, IMO."
I've never heard of an "H6" visa. The visa category normally used for workers of "distinguished merit" like programmers is the H1 or H1B. This is a temporary, non-immigrant visa, good only for a specific position with a specific employer for a limited period of time.
"If TJ wants to justify more programmers, he can bring them in on green cards."
What is "bring them in on green cards" supposed to mean? What visa category are you referring to?
"But the H6 loophole is ridiculous."
What "loophole?"
As usual, you don't know what the hell you're talking about, do you?
47. FreeToChoose - Nov. 23, 1998 - 6:09 PM PT
PseudoErasmus
"The logic that says more immigrants, the better ignores
one thing --
the impact of low-skill immigrants on the wages of
low-skilled workers."
Does this statement require the existence of trade barriers? I thought I understood that the import of goods made by low wage workers is virtually equivalent to the immigration of those same workers. I suppose one important distinction is that it is difficult to import services, so the immigration of service workers might have an impact on service wages. Am I correct in assuming that, in the absence of trade barriers, immigration of manufacturing workers would have little impact?
48. FreeToChoose - Nov. 23, 1998 - 6:17 PM PT
ChristiPeters
Actually, I was cringing, waiting for someone to poke fun at it. Glad to see you agreed.
49. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 23, 1998 - 6:17 PM PT
FreeToChoose (Message #47)
"Does this statement require the existence of trade barriers?"
I don't understand the question.
"Am I correct in assuming that, in the absence of trade barriers, immigration of manufacturing workers would have little impact?"
Why do you suppose this?
"I thought I understood that the import of goods made by low wage workers is virtually equivalent to the immigration of those same workers."
Well, except for the differences in wages paid here and abroad, yes.
"I suppose one important distinction is that it is difficult to import services, so the immigration of service workers might have an impact on service wages."
Of course services are imported. When you travel on Air France, that comes under the ledger of "import of services from France" at the Bureau of Economic Analysis.
The real distinction is that immigrants can exert an impact on workers in the sectors of the economy producing non-tradeable output.
50. FreeToChoose - Nov. 23, 1998 - 6:25 PM PT
PseudoErasmus
"I don't understand the question."
"Why do you suppose this?"
You know, I do a little homework on trade, try to ask an intelligent question, and you still have an attitude.
"Of course services are imported."
Try rereading my message. I didn't say that services weren't imported. I know they can be. I've done it. And I have exported my own services. But many services, such as barbers, aren't easily imported. But you knew that.
Enough petulance, I'll try again with a reasonable question in another post.
51. FreeToChoose - Nov. 23, 1998 - 6:42 PM PT
PseudoErasmus
You expressed the possibility that immigration could reduce wages of domestic low-skill workers. T least, that is how I interpret Message #34. Is this inference correct?
I am trying to understand how the actual immigration of low-skill immigrants have a *different* effect than the importation of the product that these workers might create in another country. I can easily see a difference if there are trade barriers. However, I do not see why the importation of products (or services) would have a different impact on wages than the immigration of the same people who created those products or performed those services.
I can imagine that immigrant workers in the US may be more productive than in their original country. I am not clear on whether this has any impact, but my first reaction is that it is unimportant.
52. CalGal - Nov. 23, 1998 - 7:01 PM PT
Elliot,
Yes, I knew it was some H visa. I did say that I didn't know, or I put a question mark by it. When Cart used it, I assumed he did know so I continued to use it. I should have checked, but I was going into a meeting.
Yes, I do know what I'm talking about, in as much as I carefully clarified my comments to be about Silicon Valley. I also made it clear that I was relying on memory, and would happily accept anyone bringing in actual data.
I think work visas are an abomination because they are a sign of a broken system and a work around. If you read my posts closely, you would realize that I was not arguing this because I thought those people were stealing jobs. You have no idea what my position is in other areas of immigration, because I haven't said anything about it.
Try--really try, Elliot--not to be such a shit. Cartman agreed with me, did you notice? Why reserve your attacks for me?
53. LadyChaos - Nov. 23, 1998 - 7:03 PM PT
I'm kinda' fond of my own little immigrant. I'm kinda' fond of our immigrants in general, here. I just wish that the Cuban retirees in west Little Havana would learn how to drive.
54. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 23, 1998 - 7:04 PM PT
Message #50
Stop whining. There was no "attitude" in Message #49.
Message #51
"I am trying to understand how the actual immigration of low-skill immigrants have a *different* effect than the importation of the product that these workers might create in another country."
Who said there is a different effect? Even in the absence of trade barriers, there are still SOME differences, but the principle that importing goods is like importing foreign labour factors is still a very good assumption.
55. FreeToChoose - Nov. 23, 1998 - 7:16 PM PT
PseudoErasmus
"Who said there is a different effect? Even in the absence
of trade barriers, there are still SOME differences, but
the principle that importing goods is like importing foreign
labour factors is still a very good assumption."
Thank-you.
So why would you express any concerns about the immigration of low-skill workers? Your concern appeared to be that they might depress the wages of those already working here. I assume that immigration and importation both increase factor price equalization. With the existence of trade barriers *and* the existence of immigration barriers, I assume we could keep the wages of resident low-skill workers higher (per unit) than in other countries, but I assume that under relatively low trade barriers, we would close in on the equilibrium level of factor prices fairly easily. Under such a situation, the immigration of low-skill workers would have negligible impact.
Is my analysis wrong, or do you think the trade barriers are material?
56. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 23, 1998 - 7:38 PM PT
"So why would you express any concerns about the immigration of low-skill workers?"
I do not have, and did not express, any concern about any adverse impact on low-skilled workers' wages due to CURRENT levels of immigrant flows. I was responding to the claim that "more immigrants, the better".
57. FreeToChoose - Nov. 23, 1998 - 7:50 PM PT
PseudoErasmus
"I do not have, and did not express, any concern about
any adverse impact on low-skilled workers' wages due to
CURRENT levels of immigrant flows. I was responding
to the claim that "more immigrants, the better". "
::sigh::
I know.
Please tell me why you would have concern about increased levels of immigration. I believe you have intimated that it might depress wage levels. Please explain whether you think that trade barriers are sufficiently high that immigration could materially affect wages, or whether my argument is flawed.
58. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 23, 1998 - 8:08 PM PT
"I assume that under relatively low trade barriers, we would close in on the equilibrium level of factor prices fairly easily."
Well, this statement is not true. The Hecksher-Ohlin model (factor price equalisation, i.e., free trade is a perfect substitute for factor mobility) is based on a set of restrictive assumptions many of which are patently false. Some of the assumptions are: 1) the trading countries have the same level of technology in production; 2) trade equalises the prices of traded goods in the trading countries; 3) the trading countries produce the same goods; and 4) factor reversals do not take place (i.e., the proportions in which labour and capital are used in the production of a good do not change).
59. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 23, 1998 - 8:12 PM PT
And, as we can see, the factor price equalisation theory is falsified sheerly on the evidence of differential wage rates across countries despite trade barriers which are low enough, according to the theory, to induce a greater convergence of wage rates.
60. smarternyou - Nov. 23, 1998 - 9:00 PM PT
I'm really waiting for the global warming thread which Irving said he would set up to discuss this in greater detail, but if we want the Senate to ratify the global warming treaty we must agree to cut immigration rates so that immigration no longer causes population growth.
If it were not for the environmental impact of immigration -- people migrating from countries of low energy use to this energy-guzzling nation -- immigration would on the whole be a plus. But reports suggesting immigration is an economic advantage to this country don't seem to factor in environmental costs.
67 Senate votes are needed to ratify the Kyoto treaty. We must offer conservative Senators something if we expect them to vote for it. Greatly reducing the rates of immigration might be an incentive that would get the treaty passed.
And, if liberals wish to be consistant, the population growth and concurrent increase in energy and resource consumption caused by immigration is far more harmful to the environment than are sports utility vehicles.
61. cllrdr - Nov. 23, 1998 - 9:23 PM PT
"And, if liberals wish to be consistant, the population growth and concurrent increase in energy and resource consumption caused by immigration is far more harmful to the environment than are sports utility vehicles."
That may very well be true. But that's still no reason to stop complaining about the sports utility vehicles. They're dangerous to other drivers and pedestrians in L.A. You can't see around them. And this place is a parking lot as it is.
62. smarternyou - Nov. 23, 1998 - 9:36 PM PT
cllrdr
Hey, we agree. I have never owned nor will I ever own a sports utility vehicle. I think they are as damaging as you do.
63. cartman69 - Nov. 23, 1998 - 10:40 PM PT
Californians ponder the eternal question: Do SUVs really really suck, or is it just their drivers?
64. CalGal - Nov. 23, 1998 - 10:52 PM PT
Cartman,
I laughed.
"``I bought it for my dog.'' said the Menlo Park owner of a new Silver Lexus RX 300. ``The car cost $43,000 with the phone.'' "
Only here. Of course, it's a truism of the area that people in Menlo Park can't drive. Little did we know we should have been blaming their pooches.
The second part of the article was interesting--the life expectancy rates for one who strikes an SUV are unnerving.
65. cartman69 - Nov. 23, 1998 - 11:00 PM PT
Cal:
I'm glad you saw the humor in it. I was laughing too, when I read it in the paper this morning -- I thought it was something out of the Onion!
Really, the most dangerous thing about SUVs, imo, is the feeling of invulnerability many drivers get behind the wheel. They pay even less attention than normal. After all, if they wreck into a mere *car*, the car will lose. This, compounded with the apparent fact that the only requisite for a driver's license anymore is a pulse, makes life more dangerous for those of us who don't drive these damned things.
Did you want to slap that dork from Menlo Park as much as I did?(g) I kept thinking of the old Robin Williams heckler slam, "Maybe Darwin was wrong".
66. CalGal - Nov. 24, 1998 - 12:18 AM PT
Cart,
Oh, no. I didn't want to slap him. He was so quintessentially Menlo.
We've known Darwin was wrong for years here. And we stick all the proof in a little tiny burg right in the middle of the Bay Area. And drive *very* carefully through town. (Unless we stop at Keplers.)
67. bilbogates - Nov. 24, 1998 - 3:33 AM PT
We need immigrants. They are racially and culturally superior to Americans. If they weren't what would be the point? Microsoft, despite the fact that is has a monopoly on both the OS and the Office Suite PC software, could not survive without immigrants. They would lost out to competition from foreign companies to be named later. Let's face it, immigration does not increase traffic or congestion, land prices stay the same, there is no racial tension and cultural problems with the never ending streams of people, and we have unlimited resources and land to accomodate any immigration. And to top it off, immigrants do not pollute. So let's continue to do as all the other countries in the world do, let's take in millions of people, forever.
68. RyckNelson - Nov. 24, 1998 - 6:44 AM PT
bilbo,
You agitator! Speaking for myself, one who married a foreign person, therefore an immigrant, I feel no animosity towards any race wishing to emmigrat to the US. But, I do feel controls are necessary to stem problems such immigrants will have with social integration.
For a case in point I would give the Hmong in Minnesota as an example. They are a fantastic peoples making a great start from not so easy beginnings. I am proud that so many chose Minnesota as there starting point. Our economy is very strong and definitely not hurt by there business startups in the fair city of St.Paul and all sorts of surrounding communities.
I have seen a beautiful Pagoda temple out in the farm lands of southern Minnesota. It is the only Buddhist temple in Minnesota that I am aware of. I just drove by on my way to a relatives wedding on day and there it was, bold and beautiful, very pastoral. Again I was very proud.
Well, this is a success story regardless of diversity and continuing struggles which all must face in this life, regardless of who we are or where we originated from.
Peace,
Rick.
69. ScotusAntonovich - Nov. 24, 1998 - 6:45 AM PT
Re: Message #25, cllrdr.
"Arrest, convict, and jail all company owners whose businesses depend on "illegal immigrant" labor."
I don't think we should jail business people at the drop of hat. But, fines and the like are certainly appropriate.
70. RyckNelson - Nov. 24, 1998 - 6:45 AM PT
oops I lost my train of thought for a case in point and went for pride.
Oh, well. Success is a good point!
71. ScotusAntonovich - Nov. 24, 1998 - 6:55 AM PT
Re: Message #33, FreeToChoose.
"The stew does not combine all the tastes into a single, average taste. Each item retains its own distinctive taste, yet is improved by the addition of flavors form other items. In the same way, our country ought to strive, not to agglomerate all people into a single mold, but to build a better society, reflecting the unique cultural backgrounds of all of its citizens."
I don't think that is really possible, though, if people are more concerned with their own "culture" than they are with integrating themselves into a preexisting society. Each different culture brings something to the table, sure, but it should be looked at as a contribution, not as a demand for recognition.
72. tnrcirc - Nov. 24, 1998 - 8:06 AM PT
Even though this has absolutely nothing to do with immigration (maybe it can be vaguely connected to imports?), I feel the need to write in to defend my besmirched town. As someone who was born and raised in Menlo Park and as a loyal Kepler's customer, I want to state that I have never at any time owned, nor do I plan to own a sports utility vehicle. I would also like to add, for the record, that I have never purchased, nor do I intend to purchase, a car for my dog.
And now, back to our regularly scheduled program...
73. CalGal - Nov. 24, 1998 - 8:21 AM PT
Tnrcirc,
I bet you own a Volvo, then.
Sorry for insulting MP in your presence. But I, too, am a loyal Kepler's customer.
Your post was my first laugh of the day--well, I got a giggle when Niner mistook me for Cellar. But you must stick around.
74. elliot803 - Nov. 24, 1998 - 8:33 AM PT
CalGal:
"Yes, I do know what I'm talking about, in as much as I carefully clarified my comments to be about Silicon Valley."
Your incomprehensible and clearly uninformed comments make no more sense with respect to Silicon Valley than they do for anywhere else.
"I think work visas are an abomination because they are a sign of a broken system and a work around."
What's this supposed to mean? In what way is the "system broken?" What problem are "work visas" a "work around" for? What type visas are you referring to? And what is "bring them in on green cards" supposed to mean?
75. harper - Nov. 24, 1998 - 8:34 AM PT
I live in an area with a lot of immigrants, both legal and illegal, so maybe my perspective is different. The immigrants here (in my neck of the woods) for the most part, are so glad to be here that they will work ANY job, no matter how menial, no matter how little it pays. Some have multiple jobs, and some do work for under-the-table pay. The used to hang around the local 7-11 all day, using it as a "hiring hall" to get day jobs. The local authorities set up an actual office where the guys could get jobs and not get "taken" by employers who would hire them then not pay them.
There are a lot of orchards in the northern Virginia area. Every year, the orchard owners have to import Haitian workers to pick the apples and berries because the indigenous poor won't take the jobs -- the work is too hard and the pay too low. Ideally, the authorities should tell them to work or starve, but that doesn't seem to work either.
76. CalGal - Nov. 24, 1998 - 8:36 AM PT
Elliot,
It's been such a *civil* thread, up to now. I think, really, it's best you don't talk to me. Thanks so much in advance.
77. elliot803 - Nov. 24, 1998 - 8:40 AM PT
CalGal:
Here's a better idea for you: just stop talking. If you continue to spout your usual incoherent and ignorant tripe, I'm afraid you'll have to face the consequences.
78. harper - Nov. 24, 1998 - 8:46 AM PT
(Continued)... When I was thinking of trying to work abroad, the various embassies I contacted told me that I had to prove that I could do work or provide a service that a native of that country couldn't do. That was the only way I could get a job and assure that government that I wasn't taking a job away from a resident. Well, needless to say, I never did get a job abroad. If the US wants to limit immigration, maybe the government needs to set restrictions like that.
Also, until such time as we eliminate welfare and train welfare recipients for decent-paying jobs, there will be a market for both legal and illegal immigrants. The fewer jobs available to immigrants, perhaps, the fewer immigrants we will take in. I've worked in companies where less than half the employees were citizens, but most of the non-citizens were both working and attending universities or trade schools.
As for illegal immigrants, there must be some way to discourage them. If washing dishes for less than minimum wages and no benefits is better than whatever they're doing to try to make a living in their own country, then we will continue to attract illegals.
At some point, all of our ancetors were immigrants. Everyone has to start somewhere. What I resent is the people who were born here who don't work, sit around drinking, smoking dope, and gambling all day (they are two doors down from me). I resent having to pay for them to hang out. I don't resent paying for people who are working and trying to better themselves. I don't care where they come from. I've been mugged on my doorstep twice and neither time was by immigrants.
79. Jenerator - Nov. 24, 1998 - 8:50 AM PT
Elliot,
Try and be in a festive mood. It'd be great if you didn't follow CalGal around all the time, insulting her. Think Thanksgiving, think holiday, think brotherly love.
80. ScotusAntonovich - Nov. 24, 1998 - 8:50 AM PT
Re: Message #78, harper.
"When I was thinking of trying to work abroad, the various embassies I contacted told me that I had to prove that I could do work or provide a service that a native of that country couldn't do. ... If the US wants to limit immigration, maybe the government needs to set restrictions like that."
I love that idea. In fact, I love it so much I suggested it in one of the previous immigration discussions. Thanks for bringing that back up.
81. elliot803 - Nov. 24, 1998 - 8:54 AM PT
harper:
"When I was thinking of trying to work abroad, the various embassies I contacted told me that I had to prove that I could do work or provide a service that a native of that country couldn't do. That was the only way I could get a job and assure that government that I wasn't taking a job away from a resident. Well, needless to say, I never did get a job abroad. If the US wants to limit immigration, maybe the government needs to set restrictions like that."
For employment-based immigrant visas, the U.S. already has a set of restrictions like that.
82. elliot803 - Nov. 24, 1998 - 8:56 AM PT
Jenerator: Heeealll! In the name of JEEEEEESUS!
83. elliot803 - Nov. 24, 1998 - 9:28 AM PT
cartman:
"There are plenty of American computer programmers who are shit out of luck, because they won't work as cheap as someone on an H6 might."
I assume you mean H1B, not H6. But your claim is not true. I defy you to find any credible evidence that the H1B program has had an adverse effect on the American labor market. U.S. immigration law requires employers to show that they are not undercutting the prevailing salary for comparable qualifications and experience when hiring an alien under the H1B category. Similar requirements exist for other kinds of immigrant and non-immigrant visas.
84. harper - Nov. 24, 1998 - 9:33 AM PT
eliott:
I didn't know that we had. I just figured that employment-based immigration might be more fair than other types of limits. I think the problem that the US is trying to deal with is the number of semi-skilled and non-skilled people who want to immigrate. Unfortunately, we've enough of our own right now and perhaps we should get them trained and employed before entertaining immigration requests. Frankly, it's probably a racial/ethnic thing these days. If non-skilled or semi-skilled immigrants were Caucasian rather than Hispanic or Asian, I doubt there would be such uproar. In my neighborhood, for example, Koreans own many of the shops; Ethiopians or Somalis work behind the counters; Hispanics load, clean, haul stuff off, do the yard work and landscaping. There are four Salvadorean restaurants within walking distance -- they used to be other types of restaurants. There's a Dominican restaurant across the street from me. And one Chinese carryout. It's an interesting neighborhood, especially during World Cup games.
85. elliot803 - Nov. 24, 1998 - 9:48 AM PT
harper:
"I think the problem that the US is trying to deal with is the number of semi-skilled and non-skilled people who want to immigrate. Unfortunately, we've enough of our own right now and perhaps we should get them trained and employed before entertaining immigration requests."
Well, as is so often the case, it's not as simple as that. Most unskilled and semi-skilled legal immigrants to the U.S. enter on the basis of family-based visas. Family reunification has always been an important principle in U.S. immigration law, for pragmatic as well as moral reasons. As I think pseudo has said, studies have shown that low-skilled immigrants have depressed the wages of some low-skilled citizens and permanent residents, but the effect has been small, and the overall economic impact of immigration has been positive. As anyone who lives in the Southwestern U.S. will tell you, there are plenty of menial jobs taken by legal and illegal immigrants because either there aren't enough existing Americans to fill them or because Americans refuse to take them.
86. harper - Nov. 24, 1998 - 11:21 AM PT
Eliott: Refusing to take the low-paying jobs is the point I tried to make. We've been taking in a lot of immigrants whose countries have been devastated by war. Where I live, that's a lot of Central Americans, Ethiopians and Somalis. Earlier, it was Vietnamese and Cambodians. They all work hard. I have no problem with any immigration and I don't see any of them as taking our jobs away. I'm merely trying to suggest methods to limit immigration if that's what the government decided to do. Other countries limit immigration. I don't necessarily think we ought to or need to, but I think we need to approach the overall picture differently.
Part of the problem I see is the "ghetto-ization" of immigrant populations. The white businesses close or move out; the shops that cater only or mostly to an immigrant population move in. The other people (non-immigrant population) in the neighborhood don't patronize those businesses, so they take their business elsewhere, or move out. Voila, the next thing you know, you've got the barrio. No diversity, no interaction between the native population and the immigrants.
My town tries very hard to promote diversity and include everyone. sometimes it works; sometimes it doesn't. The neighborhood organizations want to get the immigrant population involved, but in order to do that, we need to put out meeting announcements in (primarily) Spanish and have a translator available at the council meetings. It's very hard to get some people involved in community activities and community policing. Where they come from, the police are the bad guys who make people disappear, so they won't report crimes and they won't talk to the police. We're getting more Spanish-speaking cops and that's helped a lot.
Once we get it all sorted out, the neighborhood will work and we will all benefit. It's just a slow process.
87. ScottLoar - Nov. 25, 1998 - 8:58 AM PT
"Under an eight-year-old special visa programme for 'highly skilled' workers, foreign specialists can work in the U.S. for up to six years. Most of these are in information technology, where labour shortages are acute. Of the 50,000 such visas issued in the six months to the end of March, 44% came from India, and 9% from China, while Taiwan, the Philippines, Japan and Pakistan each accounted for 2%.
"The total number of Asian computer immigrants could rise after the U.S. Congress raised the annual quota for highly skilled foreign workers to 115,000 from 65,000 in late September." - Far Eastern Economic Review, November 5, 1998, pg.5.
Of the 2.3 million persons living in Silicon Valley (3,900 sq. kilometers) 23% are Asian or Asian-American. - Ibid.
88. ScottLoar - Nov. 25, 1998 - 9:04 AM PT
Corrigendum: pg. 51
89. haynes - Nov. 25, 1998 - 6:17 PM PT
Since America was "discovered" by an immigrant, it stands to reason that the continued populating of your country (like mine, Canada) should not be restricted to further immigration. This is the "New World" after all (New England, Nova Scotia, etc.), and immigrants are the stuff we're made of.
I don't say this out of some romantic notion or merely as a traditionalist. Our very survival depends on immigration. Demographic number crunching has revealed here, for example, that serious school teacher shortages are imminent in the coming decades. Could the same be true in the U.S.?
90. CalGal - Nov. 25, 1998 - 6:52 PM PT
Scott,
Message #87
Thanks. Russia is the trendy new H-1B country, these days.
I've been too busy to do much research on H-1B visas. But from what I've found out thus far, you need to have either a college degree or equivalent *or* you have to be (and I don't think I'm making this up) a fashion model.
For two years in a row, the visas have topped out and now they are increasing the amount. Every H1B visa holder I know is getting paid significantly under market. The stories about Indian programmers living 8 to an apartment are true, in my experience. I realize this is anecdotal. But there is no question that H1B visa holders *want* to be in America and are ripe for exploitation. The visas are held by a company, not by the individual, so if the employee is unhappy, they only have two options--find another employer to sponsor them, or go home.
So we have a convenient loophole to bring in skilled workers and, from *our* perspective, exploit them. They probably don't think of it as such. But if it is true that most of them are paid under market (and I would love data on that, if anyone can find it) and that their stay here can be yanked at any time by the company, that gives them very little ability to complain. Which creates a situation ripe for exploitation, at any rate. But they are here legally, and life is pretty good as far as they are concerned.
On the other hand, unskilled workers, who are just as eager to be exploited, since we're paying them more than they'd get in their own countries to be gardeners and maids, and who don't care about technicalities like minimum wage, are chased and hounded and live in fear.
The employers, in both cases, are pretty well off. Sure, one gets a slap on the wrist if caught, and the other one is doing everything legally, but still.
91. thomasd - Nov. 25, 1998 - 6:52 PM PT
'The Myth of the Melting Pot'?
Then what does the vast bulk of 'American' society consist of?
92. CalGal - Nov. 25, 1998 - 7:03 PM PT
I dislike the H1B visa program from all I know of it. Actually, I said they were an abomination, but I always say that about broken systems--it's nothing all that emotional for me.
However, please note--my objections to the program aren't about immigration per se, or whether or not Americans are losing jobs, but the fact that it has been cobbled together. If you're going to have a process for letting people into the country, then do it *one* way, and do it right. I am interested in learning from anyone who knows more about this program to see if there is more justification that I can take into consideration.
93. AuNaturel - Nov. 26, 1998 - 9:53 PM PT
I remember living many years ago in a section of Los Angeles near Western and Beverly. It was run down, full of boarded up store fronts with homeless people wandering the streets. Violence and theft were common. Some time after I moved out, I returned to see what the place was like. It had been taken over by Vietnamese immigrants. The stores were open, the streets were busy, half the buildings had been remodeled. The place had a thriving microculture.
The successful immigrant doesn't need a degree, just moderate intelligence and the will to work. Awful tough selecting for that in an immigration program.
94. joezan - Nov. 27, 1998 - 7:37 AM PT
Au:
During the early 80's a section of Kissena Park in Queens was host to a similar set of circumstances: An almost irretrievably run-down section of old businesses and apartment buildings was abandoned to the drug dealers and crackheads. You were taking your life in your hands merely driving through the area. Property values plummeted, but no one was buying. My cousin and his wife lived just a few blocks away. But, Queens being Queens, it was a world removed - a mostly Jewish and Italian upper-middle class area of luxury high rises.
My cousin's eternal complaint, even though he never had reason to enter the 'hood, was that the "damn niggers" were taking over Queens, and "they oughtta just firebomb the whole neighborhood".
Well, enter a few enterprising Hindus, who bought many of the buildings and quickly renovated them. Within a year or two the entire area was thriving, populated exclusively by Hindu immigrants. Crime was almost non-existent.
Isolated by language and culture (and fear), the area has remained exclusively Hindu. All the store signs are written in their language, and very few store owners speak English. My cousin's (and many others') new complaint? "Those friggin' dot-heads think they're too good for anyone - you can't even go there to buy anything".
(cont'd...)
95. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 27, 1998 - 8:00 AM PT
What on earth is the Hindu language?
96. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 27, 1998 - 8:02 AM PT
Or, rather, the "Hindu language"? Perhaps Zan speaks Evangelical Christian.
97. phiLISTine - Nov. 27, 1998 - 8:17 AM PT
Sloppy reading, PsE; Joe said the signs are in their language, not the Hindu language.
98. PseudoErasmus - Nov. 27, 1998 - 8:23 AM PT
So what is the language of the Hindus? I've never heard of the phrase "Hindu immigrants" before.
99. joezan - Nov. 27, 1998 - 8:28 AM PT
Au - (...cont'd):
So, do our two immigrant success stories support or controvert the melting pot theory?
IMO, our stories are illustrative of the way the melting pot has always worked. Was it any different for the Irish, Italian, Polish or Jewish people who left their own countries to set up ghettoes in the cities of the Northeast U.S.? They all were met with prejudice and ostracism, and reacted just as modern-day immigrant groups do - by isolating themselves into their own communities - marrying, doing business, even going to Church exclusively with their kind. Or for the German, Dutch and Czech people who built farming communities in the Midwest, never risking the worst of the immigrant experience?
The myth of the melting pot has always existed - it is the holy grail of the immigrant experience.
The reality of the melting pot has also always existed. And the reality is that, even with the prejudice, ostracism and name-calling, the vast majority of immigrants are much better off here than in their home countries.
100. phiLISTine - Nov. 27, 1998 - 8:32 AM PT
Whenever I've spoken to Hindus, it's been in english, but that's my failing, not Joe's. Joe's failing is not knowing the name of the language that he heard, but he is trying to avoid it as an irrelevant detail. I've never heard the phrase 'Hindu immigrant' before either, but I suspect he is trying to avoid the confusion that can be caused by using the word 'Indian.' Might've worked, too, but for the pedants.