1. FrayVader - June 16, 1998 - 8:17 PM PDT
Larissa MacFarquhar reviews "Erotic Innocence: The Culture of Child Molesting" by James R. Kincaid in Slate. Read the review of this highly controversial book, which exlains Kincaid's theories that both sides of the Child Abuse debate have got it wrong. Kincaid says "Eroticizing exists in symbiotic relation with sanitizing, and the veiling and the exposing exist in an encircling doublespeak." Is Kincaid right?
2. thomasd - June 16, 1998 - 8:27 PM PDT
The level of child abuse closely tracks that of single parenthood.
Think about it.
3. KurtMondaugen - June 16, 1998 - 8:36 PM PDT
Okay, I've thought about it. Now, please explain it.
4. CalGal - June 16, 1998 - 8:38 PM PDT
Thomas, PLEASE don't focus on that to the exclusion of everything else.
Love,
A single parent asking NICELY, dammit.
5. 109109 - June 16, 1998 - 8:38 PM PDT
Wait. I'm still thinking.
6. coralreef - June 16, 1998 - 8:41 PM PDT
Perhaps thomasd is implying not that single parents abuse their children more, but that natural fathers abuse their children less than men who are not genetically related to the child. It would make sense, from an evolutionary point of view.
7. Slackjaw - June 16, 1998 - 8:43 PM PDT
well, it's simple. In the antebellum South, the level of public drunkeness closely tracked the number of Baptist ministers.
Thomas is just dangerously close to confusing correlation and causation, that's all.
8. kaptnkaos - June 16, 1998 - 8:45 PM PDT
My grandfather always said that the front door of the bar was for the Catholics and that the back door was for the Baptists.
9. Msivorytower - June 16, 1998 - 8:47 PM PDT
I don't know CR, I think Thomas just wants to rope all women into staying in marriages, regardless of the circumstances. You know, legal bondage for the sake of the children.
My only concern is how do we keep all the men tied, too?
Okay, enough silliness.
I read the article, I take exception to several of the issues implied. First among them is whether it is perfectly natural for adults to be attracted to children. I think Zan raised this issue, and I'd agree, it's a large assumption.
Second, I spit on Foucoult.
10. kaptnkaos - June 16, 1998 - 8:49 PM PDT
The level of hysteria in this country over child molestation is quite annoying, to say the least. I find that I have to be very self-conscious when playing with my daughter in front of American moms; you never know what's going to be taken out of context.
I think that Kincaid has a point. As with sex in general, our Victorian tendency to suppress erotic play between grown-ups and children probably leads those who might be susceptible to being molesters to become more obsessed than they might otherwise be.
11. FrayVader - June 16, 1998 - 8:55 PM PDT
These comments originally appeared in the Suggestions thread (and then the Test thread). This should be their final resting place.
3202. ChristinO - June 16, 1998 - 5:20 PM PDT
#11537 from Suggestions
ChristinO
Anyone read the article on Child Abuse? It raised some questions for me short and vague as it was not least of all the issue of whether we are more obsessed as a nation with prurient sexuality because of our inability/unwillingnes to admit that it holds interest for us.
Other things it brought to mind:
The US has the highest number of reported sex crimes. Do we really have more or do we have harsher laws or stricter ideas about what is and is not permissible?
Why is the US the only country with separate laws dealing with the abuse of children?
Is the US view of children detrimental to their well-being?
11547. joezan - June 16, 1998 - 4:00 PM PDT
ChristinO - Message #11537
I was looking for somewhere to post on that article, and now that you mentioned it, I will post here.
The author implies rather strongly in that article that it is normal to be sexually aroused by children, but that what is abnormal is for adults to act on that arousal. This is wrong, and it is sick. It is NOT normal for an adult to be aroused by children. (And the article, I believe, implies or states "young" children, not well-developed pubescent children, or teens).
This bit of idiocy ruined, for me, the rest of the article, which made some good points regarding the national hysteria regarding the issue.
I do believe that this is a good suggestion for a thread, though.
12. FrayVader - June 16, 1998 - 8:56 PM PDT
11549. UnderCoverSquids - June 16, 1998 - 4:18 PM PDT
Joe,
Without having read the article, is there any evidence that the author puts forward to support such a claim (" The author implies rather strongly in that article that it is normal to be sexually aroused by children,"?)
I mean, normal could be defined simply as X% are aroused by children. If this is true, it may make us wish to jump out of our skins but we can't simply say "It isn't so."
11550. ChristinO - June 16, 1998 - 4:42 PM PDT
JoeZ: It is normal, instinctual in fact to lash out at those that annoy or hurt us. Most of us fight that urge or have learned to suppress it. Because it is not civilized does not make it "sick". While I absolutely believe it is wrong to act on sexual impulses toward chidren, the having of them or the awareness of any creature's sexuality cannot just be labeled "sick" and discarded. To deny reality and biology in such a manner is naive at best and terribly irresponsible at worst.
11551. CalGal - June 16, 1998 - 4:43 PM PDT
Well, where do we want to discuss this article, because I just read it and it made me sick to my stomach. News of the Day? Big Questions?
13. 109109 - June 16, 1998 - 8:58 PM PDT
I don't know. This country is so freaking anomolous. 260 million cowboys and criminals. I don't know the statistics on child molestation, whether it is static or not over the years, but I live in the D.C. area, and it never ends, the stories of torture and sexual abuse and beatings.
14. thomasd - June 16, 1998 - 9:08 PM PDT
Well, here's a few quick statistics and factoids: In the US, child abuse is up 134% since 1980 and child sexual abuse is up 350% during the same time period. When the proportion of single parent households increases past about 30% in a neighborhood, it becomes one which is no longer supportive of childrens welfare, but the opposite, with crime rapidly increasing. A British study on the relative incidence of child abuse in different types of households, included in a 1993 book: "Broken Homes and Battered Children", included the following information:
Compared with children in traditional intact, married families, children are:
Six times more likely to be abused in blended (divorced and remarried) families;
Fourteen times more likely to be abused in single mother/living alone families;
Twenty times more likely to be abused in families where the natural parents cohabit; and
Thirty-three times more likely to be abused when the mother cohabits with a boyfriend.
These figures include all types of child abuse: physical, mental and sexual.
Laugh these figures off.
15. CalGal - June 16, 1998 - 9:12 PM PDT
I dislike the term "child abuse" used for what is clearly only sexual abuse. "Only" in the sense that there is also physical and emotional abuse, which I don't think get enough play.
I had real problems with the contention that the recidivism rate is less among sexual offenders. But I found something that backed up what he was referring to:
Child Molester Recidivism
Here is another APA link that shows that twice as many kids are physically abused than sexually abused. Add in neglect, which I consider abusive, and it shows, yet again, that we Americans are a little obsessed with sex.
This is *not* to make light of sexual abuse at all. I believe most offenders can't be rehabilitated and are dangerous. Most of them escalate their behavior, from what I've read.
16. 109109 - June 16, 1998 - 9:33 PM PDT
Cal
Even if they don't, the mere threat of harm and its attendant effects require and extreme measure. A mugger hits you over the head. It hurts. But it does not make you a mugger. A child abuser or molester contributes to similar activity (at least, from what I understand). Get me a recidivist child molester or abuser, and it is hand-hacking time.
17. joezan - June 16, 1998 - 9:39 PM PDT
thomasd is right, to an extent, in pointing out the link between children raised in single-family homes and child sexual abuse. However, keeping a family "intact" is only the simplest solution to this problem. (I say that with wincing irony).
Like most other domestic problems, this one occurs at all socio-economic levels. And, like most others, it is magnified the lower on the economic scale one looks. The options open to poor, un-educated women wrt child care for young children are very few. This often forces them into some pretty unsavory situations, as the physical well-being of their children (especially when symptoms of abuse aren't apparent)takes a back seat to "providing" for them.
In my experience, child sexual abuse is not anywhere near as obvious as it is believed to be, and quite often a child doesn't begin to show symptoms for months or years after it has started. And by then it is too late.
18. kaptnkaos - June 16, 1998 - 9:44 PM PDT
thomasd
One has to be careful when quoting crime statistics. They are usually based on the incident reporting rate, which is highly dependent on victim awareness. It could be that increased awareness of sexual abuse has led to increased reporting, and thus the appearance of a dramatic rise in the problem.
19. CalGal - June 16, 1998 - 9:45 PM PDT
Joe,
Again, that's true of all sorts of abuse.
There was a terrifying show on PBS a while ago--my son watched it and told me about it. Apparently, they prepped all these kids (age 7 or so) on what *not* to do if a stranger asked them to get into the car. And then an expert got every single kid in the car.
Made a huge impression on Spawn.
I think sexual abuse is highlighted also because it's unequivocally wrong. Touch my kid sexually, you're dead. Because most of us wouldn't do that and there's no doubt about it's evil if a parent *does* touch a kid sexually.
OTOH, physical violence towards children--not as often done by strangers, and parents have mixed feelings about whether hitting a child is "okay".
20. Slackjaw - June 16, 1998 - 9:47 PM PDT
"The most reckless and treacherous of all men is he who professes to let facts and figures speak for themselves."
--Alfred Marshall, economist
21. joezan - June 16, 1998 - 10:08 PM PDT
CalGal:
The link you posted on recidivism rates for sexual crimes is pretty misleading for a few reasons:
1. It only followed 100 some-odd offenders.
2. The study was done in Canada, which does not have anywhere near the data-base or the tracking ability of American law-enforcement, wrt such cases. The latest *American* figures I have seen, from much more scientifically reliable studies, places the recidivism rate at close to 85%.
3. It does not take into account this fact: "Recidivism" is a very misleading term, because it takes into account only new arrests and convictions. Child molestors, on average, have molested DOZENS, and in an astounding number of cases even HUNDREDS of victims, before ever being caught in the first place.
So, Repeat Felon *A* may be arrested 6 times for armed robbery over a 20 year period. We may assume that he has also gotten away with a few - say, a dozen.
Meantime, Repeat Felon *B* gets arrested only 3 times for chuild sexual assault, over the same period. But studies show conclusively that Felon B gets away with many, many more crimes than does Felon A, because his crime is much less obvious, is perpetrated on victims who are much less likely/able/willing to testify, and is infinitely harder to prove.
22. CalGal - June 16, 1998 - 10:15 PM PDT
Joe,
Great. Happy to hear it.
I was upset at the misleading nature of the article and just went looking for anything that supported it to see how the hell the author could say such a thing.
To me, the fact that he didn't mention the *types* of offenders and their patterns was bad enough. To say nothing of everything you mentioned.
23. verdeazul - June 16, 1998 - 10:16 PM PDT
Slacker:
In the same vein: "There are Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics!
Mark Twain (I think)
v~
24. joezan - June 16, 1998 - 11:08 PM PDT
Here is an interesting perspective on one cause of child sexual abuse which was given to me by a female probation officer with whom I worked for a few months, but whose experience has been mostly with adults. (I work with juveniles). When she described her experiences working with adult molestors, I had one of those smack-yourself-in-the-forehead epiphanies about something that I have heard of, and seen the results of, literally hundreds of times, but for some reason had never added it all up.
She said that almost all her molestor probationers had started out as baby sitters for the children they had molested. Most had eventually moved in with the mothers of their victims, either casually or as married partners.
Why would a mother choose a man as a baby sitter, you ask? (And I asked)? Because girls won't baby sit for free. See, child molestors are the most devious, scheming sons-of-bitches there are. They choose their victims very carefully. They are also very patient. And what better prey than the children of a single mom, who is working and paying a third of her already meager income for child care?
So in comes mister nice guy, who's perfectly willing to help out by watching the kids for free while mom waits tables on the second shift.
It was probably 6 years ago that I had this conversation. Since then, I have actually seen magazine articles and single-mom guides warning against using males as baby sitters, even when they are well-known to the family.
This is the kind of information, imo, which needs to be looked at more closely. Not some twaddle about the innate sexuality of children, or the "normalcy" of adult attraction to childhood sexuality.
25. CalGal - June 16, 1998 - 11:16 PM PDT
Joe,
My therapist is so aware of this that she has a serious bias against *any* male childcare worker. She realizes it's unreasonable, but the predator aspects of sexual offenders are amazing and appalling, and the statistics overwhelming.
26. KurtMondaugen - June 16, 1998 - 11:27 PM PDT
Hmm...well, speaking as one who watches some friends' children fairly regularly, and, while I do not think it's 'natural for adults to be sexually attracted to children', I do think it's natural for adults (as well as children) to be aware of a child's sexual (ie: human) nature (oh, yeah...I'm also speaking as one who's been molested, so don't call the authorities just yet). I think (with certain reservations) Kincaid raises some valid issues that bear addressing honestly and realistically.
27. joezan - June 16, 1998 - 11:29 PM PDT
CalGal:
I agree so whole-heartedly with your therapist, that I am not able, because of professional constraints, to even begin to say why.
I will say, though, that I have been, in 20 years of working with kids, in many different supervisory positions over male and female childcare workers. And when I worked in the adolescent psych field, the amount of sexual abuse which I was peripherally aware of, perpetrated by "professionals" in the field, was sickening.
28. CalGal - June 16, 1998 - 11:38 PM PDT
Kurt,
I guess what appalls me is that the vast, monstrous, HUGE chasm between feeling some sense of child as sexual being and acting on that impulse is not acknowledged.
But more than that (and we've had this discussion before, I think), sexually abusing a child has *nothing* to do with sex or desire, but with control and power.
Another thing not even nodded at, that I could see. But then I only read the article once and quickly. It really nauseated me on a level I can't quite explain. Probably not completely logical.
29. KurtMondaugen - June 16, 1998 - 11:48 PM PDT
Cal:
"the vast, monstrous, HUGE chasm between feeling some sense of child as sexual being and acting on that impulse is not acknowledged."
We've touched on this discussion before, though only briefly. I tend to agree with your deliniation between desire and control, and that many people tend to confuse acknowledgment with more sinister implications, which may have something to do with your immediate reaction to the article. Or not. These are big, sensitive questions, of course, and while I hope people can speak delicatly as the thread progresses, I honestly hope it's not at the expense of directly confronting some of these issues.
30. joezan - June 16, 1998 - 11:58 PM PDT
Kurt:
I see your point. In fact, I posted something similarly (seemingly) wretched that I heard Harvey Fierstein say about "all" men who live alone being gay, a couple of weeks ago in the Gay thread.
But the fact remains; over 90% of child molestors are male. In your case, I would be willing to bet that you don't make a habit of moving into trailer parks or housing projects from which points to act on your devious plans.
This is the way of the molestor, and I think that if women, particularly working single moms who cannot "afford" adequate child care, were more aware of the m.o.'s of these scum, they would be alot more apt to look the gift horse in the mouth, so to speak.
31. CalGal - June 17, 1998 - 12:04 AM PDT
Kurt,
To me, the difference is that the issue of children as sexual beings, which is an excellent discussion, should not even be *mentioned* in the same debate as child abuse.
32. KurtMondaugen - June 17, 1998 - 12:12 AM PDT
Cal:
Perhaps not, but for those who view the very notion as abberrant (not that that directly applies to anyone here as of yet), it's as good a place to start as any, I suppose.
33. CalGal - June 17, 1998 - 12:21 AM PDT
Kurt,
Um. Not (for me, anyway) in an article purportedly about child abuse.
34. verdeazul - June 17, 1998 - 12:21 AM PDT
All:
I did not mean to stop discussion by posting the Mark Twain quote about statistics. The advent of the powerful desktop computer has certainly benefitted our society in many ways, but I see it now as a tool that is being increasingly misused by managerial types in both public and private sectors, to give the illusion of management skills and competence-particularily in the area of Human Services. Stick in the "data", hit the 'print' button, and in a short while you will have an impressive-looking readout in your hands that looks official, is taken to be both 'scientific' AND free from human error, but, can be interpreted in many different ways.
Some of you may know that I worked professionally as a Psychiatric Emergency Counselor in a public facility for many years in California. I was the Director of a children's daytreatment program in Bridgeport, Ct. for a time in the early 70's. I've also done outreach psychiatric assessment and counseling to homebound elderly persons in rural areas of both Washington State and in California.
I have spent many court-ordered hours in ongoing counseling with persons convicted of sexually abusing children. I once assessed a man who shot and killed himself soon after I reported his disclosure of sexual misconduct to Child Protective Services (Mandatory). (cont.)
35. cigarlaw - June 17, 1998 - 12:23 AM PDT
Having been involved in the defense of several accused and actual child molesters and represented children who have been molested, I have several opinions on the subject, most of which will probably be controversial. However, since I have to argue a 1st degee murder case to a jury tomorrow, I will throw only this out:
Sexual attraction, to my mind, is less important in most cases than power. As men become more powerless in their lives in particular and less powerful in general, the use of those over whom they have power has become a way of asserting themselves and reestablishing in their own minds that they still control their lives and environment.
36. joezan - June 17, 1998 - 12:26 AM PDT
CalGal:
Exactly. There is a big difference between acknowledging a child's sexuality, and the belief that it can interact, on ANY level, with an adult's sexuality.
Unhindered, a child's sexual tendencies proceed through purely natural stages, which are necessary to the emotional development of the child.
It seems to me, when people say things like "It is natural for adults to be attracted to the sexuality of children", that one point which they are subliminally implying is, if not for societal taboos against such behavior, children would not be so affected by engaging in sex with adults.
And I think that's a real dangerous road to go down.
37. CalGal - June 17, 1998 - 12:38 AM PDT
Joe,
"that one point which they are subliminally implying is, if not for societal taboos against such behavior, children would not be so affected by engaging in sex with adults. "
Yes. And this upsets me.
We had any number of go-rounds here earlier over the Mary LeTourneau case, and it is amazing how many people think a child's consent makes a difference.
38. verdeazul - June 17, 1998 - 12:49 AM PDT
(cont.)
Most therapists do not care to work with abusers. A natural repugnance to the abuser's deviant behavior is part of the reason. The other part is that, without exception, the abusers I've worked with have claimed that the child or children he molested, all had "lead him on" in one way or another...the child was either partly or mostly to blame. He was not the instigator. Or, the child/children had actually enjoyed the incident(s).
Very hard, if not impossible, to break through such massive denial. And if someone believes such attitudes long enough, they become embedded and, "true".
(Too tired.Gotta sleep now).
AZ~
39. CalGal - June 17, 1998 - 12:54 AM PDT
V,
Yes. Yet another reason that feels right as to why the article upset me. Validation of any molester's deep denial. In general, truly sick and damaged people, usually broken beyond repair.
40. joezan - June 17, 1998 - 1:19 AM PDT
True Story:
About 9 years ago (before public disclosure legislation), I had the extreme displeasure of having on my caseload a 16 y.o. child molestor. So heinous were this kid's crimes (youngest victim was 1 y.o.), and so selfishly unrepentant was he, that after working with him for a very short time, I was no longer able to even sympathize with the fact that he had (probably) been a victim of molestation himself.
Anyway, because he was not legally an adult, there was very little we could do with him. One advantage he had over an incarcerated adult, though, was that he was offered as much therapy as he could handle - in fact, it was court ordered. He refused. He was also offered the option of chemical castration, which he tried for a few days, then stopped, because he "couldn't even j**k off".
Well after nearly 2 years, we had to release this kid. But because he had molested dozens of kids in his neighborhood, the plan was to release him to his gramma, who lived 200 miles away. In preparation for this, the plan was to have him go to gramma's on 4 consecutive "try-out" weekend visits. (cont'd next post...)
41. joezan - June 17, 1998 - 1:32 AM PDT
(...cont'd)
Well, on his first visit he was picked up by the police at 2am, lurking in the woods adjacent to an all-night grocery store. He was brought back and re-detained. But he had some wonderful news for me - he was not lurking for kids...he now wanted an adult woman! He was cured!
Anyway, to make a long, sad story a little shorter, his 18th birthday was coming, so we had to release him (3 weeks after the above incident). Of course, there had to be a treatment plan. On paper, this plan consisted of twice-weekly individual therapy and weekly visits to a P.O. In our private interdisciplinary meeting, though, the real plan was hammered out...: Release him. Wait till he offends as an adult, and make sure he is put away for as long as possible.
Even 9 years ago, it was widely recognized that pedophilia is incurable, and gets worse as the offender ages.
42. CalGal - June 17, 1998 - 1:36 AM PDT
Joe,
Yes. And apparently, some rapists move from women to younger girls as they get older? Which is possibly different, I dunno.
I read that during the Polly Klaas murder.
43. joezan - June 17, 1998 - 1:51 AM PDT
CalGal:
Yes, many do.
With this guy, though, it was a big fat lie. He was stalking kids - probably waiting for some mom to pull in and "just leave her kid alone in the car for a second". But he actually thought his little story about wanting a woman would change people's opinions of him.
In any case, he was re-arrested and charged as an adult within a month of being released. A concerned staff member at the detention center *broke the law*, and called the local police dept. in gramma's area and alerted them to this guy's record. They investigated, and found out he had been baby sitting his little cousins since the week he was released. I don't know all the details, but I know that he was put away for a good long time.
44. CalGal - June 17, 1998 - 2:04 AM PDT
Joe,
Oh, I wasn't connecting the two. Sorry.
It is scary how it's possible to produce such...broken people.
45. Msivorytower - June 17, 1998 - 4:58 AM PDT
Kurt
I'm interested in hearing more about what you mean by it being natural for adults to acknowledge and recognize a child's sexuality. What does this cover for you? I mean, are you talking about adults being cognizant of a child's sexual feelings? or their being sexy? or their desire to explore their bodies?
Is it natural for adults to be aware, and even appreciate the innate sexuality of children as humans, but not natural for them to be sexually attracted to children (to fantasize about them as sexual partners)?
As I read your comments, for me there was a clear distinction between these two. As an adult, I've watched, and even enjoyed, my daughter's growing awareness of her body, of her innate sexuality. But I've never been sexually attracted to this process, or even had fantasies about her *awakening*. I took exception in Kincaids comments that implied the latter would be natural, unless I misunderstood what he/she meant, too.
This is a very fine line, perhaps, for some, but I think an important one to discuss and try to bring out.
Zan,
I've enjoyed your posts on this topic so far. Very thought provoking.
46. Msivorytower - June 17, 1998 - 5:03 AM PDT
that should be *to Kincaid's...* not in......
I'd also like to hear more wrt the issue that child abuse is about power and not sexual attraction. Are people suggesting it's a modified form of rape (which, I believe, is all about power and control)?
47. ArielTheSprite - June 17, 1998 - 5:11 AM PDT
I think that one of the definitions that goes begging in the review, though perhaps not in the book itself, is whom is considered a child. Everyone under 18? Pre-pubescent girls and boys? What?
I look at stories about 19 - 20 year old men and their pregnant 12 - 13 year old girlfriends and wonder why this type of abuse wasn't even mentioned in this review. I'd consider this behavior to be sexual abuse of a child, and wonder if there are any sort of records kept as regards these types of sexual predators and their recidivism rates. Is this considered tacitly OK in our society? I never hear much about the sexual abuse aspect of these cases, so I'm very confused.
48. RobertDente - June 17, 1998 - 5:54 AM PDT
My two cents...
49. ArielTheSprite - June 17, 1998 - 6:39 AM PDT
My statement is:
Another consumer good!
50. ScottLoar - June 17, 1998 - 6:40 AM PDT
It is normal and usual for an adult to be aroused by a child's sexuality? And the only prevention is self-restraint and cultural prohibition? That's absurd, as most of our experience testifies! Rather, it sounds like the credo of the North American Man Boy Love Association (NAMBLA). Children are asexual but vulnerable, totally dependent on adults until they reach their teens and the beginnings of true sexuality (developed sex), and so often the victims of predations.
51. marjoribanks - June 17, 1998 - 7:00 AM PDT
ScottLoar,
Very accurately put. It may be normal for an adult to notice the budding sexuality of a child, but certainly not normal to desire a personal intervention therein.
Sprite,
I'm not sure I'd put the young male with younger girlfriend in the category of 'abuser' so easily. There are often mitigating factors which place the two partners in equally negative light.
52. 109109 - June 17, 1998 - 7:14 AM PDT
Ariel
On your point (and where the line gets murky), was it child abuse when the Seattle teacher carried on the affair with her male student? Jeez, even that last sentence is pregnant with my biases. The "affair." Whereas, had a male teacher started up with a sixth grade girl, I'm screaming "hand hacking time" (my anti-Roman Polanski/Lolita edge is sharp).
53. ArielTheSprite - June 17, 1998 - 7:16 AM PDT
I know, Marj; it's true that there are sometimes mitigating factors. It's just that anyone at least seven to eight years older than the child in question (for so I believe them to be) has got to have some sort of screw loose. If the older party has all of his or her marbles, then he or she is a predator, no matter how many 'lures' they say the younger person has thrown out. If there is some sort of mental deficiency on the older person's part, that is another matter entirely, and should be dealt with accordingly.
54. ArielTheSprite - June 17, 1998 - 7:23 AM PDT
109109:
Yes, I believe that was child abuse as well; it was definitely a case of an adult in a position of power using everything at her command to abuse the child in question, no matter what he says now. Many abused adults protect their abusers - are children any different? Her protests of having been 'seduced' ring very hollow to me.
I used the pregnant 12 or 13 year-old as an example because many times the only issue put on the table in this type of situation seems to be child support, and not the sexual abuse of a child. Marj points out that there are 'often' mitigating factors, but I am only ready to go so far as 'sometimes'. I really would like to know if these people are somehow tracked for future abuses.
55. 109109 - June 17, 1998 - 7:28 AM PDT
Ariel
Well, all her protests were hollow. She is a sick woman. But she received a slap on the wrist and then returned for more steamy windows with the kid. My guess is that - gender roles reversed - stiff prison term.
As for child abuse, I wonder if there are studies on young males who were "seduced" or "molested" by older women, and the attendant effects. Culturally, of course, such "seduction" is an icon, although sixth grade is pushing it.
Then again, when I played sixth grade football, an opponent had a beard. We lost.
56. marjoribanks - June 17, 1998 - 7:31 AM PDT
Sprite,
I'm not sure that so many teenage pregnancies occur with the male being 20 or more and the female 13 or less.
In these selected cases of teenage pregnancy, in this country, the 'predatory' factor may come into play. But I am not sure it is significant.
57. ArielTheSprite - June 17, 1998 - 7:33 AM PDT
109109:
A close look at our 'culture' as regards children is often disconcerting, to say the least. Children seem to be a type of tabula rasa upon which we project any number of desires, sexual or otherwise. I, too, would be interested in a study such as you mention.
58. marjoribanks - June 17, 1998 - 7:37 AM PDT
I'll bet you that the fathers of most American babies born to pre-teen and early are pre-teen or early teen themselves.
59. ScottLoar - June 17, 1998 - 7:37 AM PDT
But one cannot deny the sexual attraction between the Seattle teacher and her student who had already arrived at sexuality (the kid's in raging hormones and his teacher wants sex, any doubt as to the outcome?); that it was consummated became grounds for a trial according to the mores of our society. This, we surely can agree, is not the same as sex with a prepubescent child. That we would judge a man more harshly than the woman teacher (109109's comments stand as fair measure to that attitude) testifies that there are more serious and severe consequences (pregnancy, opprobrium)to the life of a young girl than a young boy.
60. 109109 - June 17, 1998 - 7:38 AM PDT
Ariel
Help a barefoot out. Tabula rasa?
61. ArielTheSprite - June 17, 1998 - 7:42 AM PDT
I'm not sure either about the statistical significance of these types of pregnancies, but they do exist, and I'd like to know the numbers involved. It's the same sort of thing as the woman who abused the 12 year-old boy, got pregnant, and then claimed that *she* was seduced. How much abuse of younger boys by older females takes place?
I'm interested in determining whether the cases that I mentioned involving older males *not* in a position of authority are classified as abuse. We know that even though the woman involved with the 12 year old got a 'slap on the wrist', as 109109 mentions, she still went to jail. Do the males I'm talking about go to jail as well, or is there some wider age threshold that must be met?
62. ArielTheSprite - June 17, 1998 - 7:43 AM PDT
Tabula rasa = blank slate
63. ArielTheSprite - June 17, 1998 - 7:44 AM PDT
I dunno Marj, I'd rather know than bet.
64. PsychProf - June 17, 1998 - 7:46 AM PDT
niner...blank slate...
65. 109109 - June 17, 1998 - 7:46 AM PDT
Scott
Right. There may be a certain "know it when I see it" deal here as well.
66. 109109 - June 17, 1998 - 7:55 AM PDT
Ariel
The males go to jail when the disparity is wide and there appears to be coercion (I'm talking 25 versus 13-14).
When you get into the 15-18 range, it is statutory rape, but the law seems to recognize the murky area.
In any case, it seems that a fair definition for the lock-you-up abuse is pre-pubescent. Maybe not.
Hell, that's why we have juries.
I feel very tabla rasa this morning.
67. 109109 - June 17, 1998 - 7:55 AM PDT
That's tabula rasa (mine was in pill form).
68. ArielTheSprite - June 17, 1998 - 7:56 AM PDT
ScottLoar:
Another factor in judging a male teacher in a harsher manner than the female teacher is one to which 109109 has already alluded:
The (alleged) great American teenage male fantasy of 'secucing' an older woman.
Even if this is true, the female 'teacher who wants sex' should be placed on a par with her male counterpart for abusing a child, pre-pubescent or not.
69. ArielTheSprite - June 17, 1998 - 7:59 AM PDT
Thanks, 109109.
I wouldn't go into FC after taking your tabla rasa, though. You'll be fresh meat and a half.
70. 109109 - June 17, 1998 - 8:03 AM PDT
Ariel
"Even if this is true, the female 'teacher who wants sex' should be placed on a par with her male counterpart for abusing a child, pre-pubescent or not."
Hmmm. And I don't want to get my ass kicked here, but as Scott pointed out, the damage done to a female is certainly greater - pregnancy, if young enough, even physical damage. And, as I said, a study on the psychological effects of boys who undergo the older librarian fantasy would be beneficial.
I understand equity, but the jury's sympathy will be with the older woman, and I suppose there are good and bad reasons for that.
71. ScottLoar - June 17, 1998 - 8:30 AM PDT
I must confess, given the memories of myself and classmates, that "making it" with an older woman is a young boy's fantasy...erh, which seems to subside somewhat after we've graduated from college.
72. KurtMondaugen - June 17, 1998 - 8:34 AM PDT
MSI:
It seems to me you understood my posts, and reiterated them as such. Children, as humans, are sexual beings, and it's normal for adults to be aware of this. There is a distinction between this and sexual attraction, though sometimes, unfortunately, it can be somewhat grey. For instance, when the Letourneau case was the 'hot' news item, I distinctly remember an ironic commercial break coming into one of the broadcasts featuring a 4th or 5th-grader dolling himself up like John Travolta in "Saturday Night Fever", striding into his classroom and oozing with Mediterranean "allure" as he boogied up to his (attractive, female) teacher and handed her a soda which she accepted with a hazy, coy and 'appreciative' glance. In a culture which is able to sexualize children in such a cavalier fashion, why all the outrage over any expression of a sexual identity prior to the age of 16 or 18 (depending on what state of the union you live, or much less in other parts of the world)? I'm not talking about violation, here...obviously if an adolescent is not mature enough to know the difference between violation/exploitation/initiation and exploration, then something is, of course, very wrong. I'm of the opinion, though, that responsible education and communication with children/young adolescents on these matters is far more productive and healthy than blinders and shock, and may help to alleviate potentially dangerous situations.
73. ScottLoar - June 17, 1998 - 8:34 AM PDT
The fantasy of "making it" with an older woman is strong, proving that the boy is recognized as a sexual partner and able to satisfy the older and therefore more worldly woman, else why would she choose me? So it goes.
74. ScottLoar - June 17, 1998 - 8:38 AM PDT
No, it is not normal to define children as sexual beings, because that very essence of "sex" is subdued and unformed in prepubescent children, that's why they are children for God's sake.
75. 109109 - June 17, 1998 - 8:44 AM PDT
Scott
The fantasy of making it with an older woman for a young boy goes no further than "aaaaa . . . oooooo . . . grrrr" Satisfaction for the older woman? How about survival?
76. KurtMondaugen - June 17, 1998 - 8:44 AM PDT
Loar:
I agree, that among prepubescents 'latent' is most applicable.
77. 109109 - June 17, 1998 - 8:46 AM PDT
Re 74
I second the motion.
78. ScottLoar - June 17, 1998 - 8:46 AM PDT
KurtMondaugen: Agreed, "latent" makes a world of difference, because we are truly talking about the difference and the observed and necessarily respected divide between the child's world and the adult world.
79. ScottLoar - June 17, 1998 - 8:50 AM PDT
109109 re #75: My post #73 did not imply that the older woman would be sexually satisfied, save she did it with me.
80. 109109 - June 17, 1998 - 8:54 AM PDT
Scott
I get your drift, big fella.
81. KurtMondaugen - June 17, 1998 - 8:58 AM PDT
Loar:
Then when is acknowledgment appropriate? I think it's a pretty safe bet that the majority of us here were aware of our sexual identities, and probably acted on them, before the age of 18 or 16. Why do other countries place consent at lower, and hypothetically more realistically appropriate, ages? As has been exemplified in this forum maturity oftentimes has little to do with physical age. Keep in mind, I'm not advocating anything, here, more like thinking aloud, but in a culture that accepts and 4th-grader/teacher soda-commercial come-ons, for instance, and can also give us JonBennet (or Letourneau, for that matter), it seems that some dialogue and questions should be raised.
82. ScottLoar - June 17, 1998 - 9:01 AM PDT
109109: In those few instances when I was young and lucky enough to have the company of an older woman (if I knew how few and fleeting those moments are I'd have kept them more carefully) the attraction was strong for what's exotic is erotic, even the exotic nature of two persons so dissimilar in age, but when you also throw in different culture or race the combination is...explosive. And no more about that for I'm guilty of straying too far from the topic, and this topic of child abuse deserves critical comment.
83. 109109 - June 17, 1998 - 9:05 AM PDT
Scott
Agreed on the topic. But I expect a full report on your conquests in a more appropriate venue.
84. thomasd - June 17, 1998 - 9:07 AM PDT
Re. 20, 23:
I guess those old canards you guys posted sure put my statistics to rout. Here I was thinking facts were relevant. Silly me. Well, carry on.
85. ScottLoar - June 17, 1998 - 9:10 AM PDT
Pubescence, the oncoming of puberty, is transition from the asexuality of children to the sexuality which defines adults. The physical body is considered adult when the body and organs are so formed that reproduction is possible, but we (here in the US) recognize the teenage years which admits that the mind's development is far removed from the adult body.
Other countries, cultures and times allow consent for various reasons that, in their opinion, overarch polite considerations of tender youth such as marriage for advantage or the need to bear young quickly.
86. TheDiva - June 17, 1998 - 9:21 AM PDT
This from the National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy:
"Three quarters (76%) of teen mothers are unmarried and 60 percent are 18-19 years old. Many of the fathers of children born to teen mothers are even older - *nearly 40 percent of the fathers are 20 years or older.* " (italics mine)
These men are predators.......a dear friend is director of our County's Office on Youth, which focuses on teen pregnancy prevention. (BTW, I am including kids ages 11 and up, by their standards.) Time and again, she tells me, the youngest girls are impregnated by men in their 20s and older! These bastards want virgins because the girls are "clean".....she told the story of an 11 year-old girl who had syphilis *in her mouth* from one of these animals.
Yanking their scrotums up over their heads would be too kind, if you ask me.
87. ScottLoar - June 17, 1998 - 9:21 AM PDT
The teen years are adolescence and liberties are expected to be taken as forgiveness and forbearance are expected of the elders, but extended adolescence such as we now have in the US seems peculiar to wealthy societies. This gives us a real conundrum: what to do about the wreckage teen years produce? And there is no greater wreckage than the children born out of wedlock, deprived of parents and deprived of a future.
88. CalGal - June 17, 1998 - 9:27 AM PDT
FTR, I brought up Mary LeTourneau in Message #37.
I've said this before, but adult sex with children is *always* about control.
When a teenager, the lines do become blurry, but there needs to be an age limit (arbitrary is fine--I've always liked three years).
Like it or not, all relationships are about power. Balance of power is important. An adult having sex with a child has all the power; the child can't really consent.
There are relationships that have no power equity where both people are adults, of course. Not my concern.
Talking about LeTourneau and "gosh, they're in love, or it's passion" nauseates me. Not the act itself, bad enough. But people describing it that way. The double standard and the way we don't protect boys in our culture. Sickening.
89. KurtMondaugen - June 17, 1998 - 9:33 AM PDT
Loar:
Message #85 is perfectly agreeable and acceptable. But our culture spends a good deal of effort on sexualizing, or projecting sexuality rather, onto 'asexual' children through constant conditioning (girls pink/boys blue nonsense), the media, and in other ways (remember the kindergartener who was taken to court for kissing one of his classmates? Granted, his action was almost certainly asexual and innocent, so then why the furor?). Homosexuality has become a heated issue among "wholesome", innocent institutions such as the Cub Scouts. Etc. etc. Perhaps I'm being a bit deliberatly provocative, but are these examples of appropriate acknowledgement? If sexuality is not an issue prior to a certain age, then why the signals and the concern?
90. ScottLoar - June 17, 1998 - 9:44 AM PDT
KurtMondaugen, yes, I agree with your observations which admit but one conclusion - Americans are well-nigh consumed by thoughts of sex which bespeaks childish indulgence on their part and not the calculation of control and power over their sexual partner (please, I do not advocate so) which seems rare among them.
91. ChristinO - June 17, 1998 - 11:12 AM PDT
I'm curious about this "asexuality" that children supposedly have until puberty. Physical/hormonal puberty generally begins around the age of 11 or 12 for girls although occasionally earlier. How does one explain the sexual play and interest in sexual things long before that age?
It's not being suggested that all sexuality is nasty and apart from the innocent purity of chilhood, is it? I mean, that's a bit what it sounds like to me.
"Catch and Kiss" is still a popular schoolyard game that as I recall hits around first grade. It's most definitely sexual, but there's nothing nasty about it.
While I acknowledge that I was sexualized somewhat earlier in my life than some, I was not a freak nor was I alone in my sexual questioning. As I remember I hit curiosity around four and a half or five and the other kids caught up about a year later.
92. ArielTheSprite - June 17, 1998 - 11:15 AM PDT
I read the review again and was struck anew by this little gem:
'It's possible to dismiss such prescriptions as naive, but in the context of the quasideterministic Foucauldianism from which Kincaid's brand of cultural criticism emerges, they're refreshing--even startling. When was the last time a Foucauldian offered a step-by-step cure for cultural malaise? Kincaid's eccentric combination of suspicious narrative analysis and self-help, can-do enthusiasm may be just the Dale Carnegie twist these old ideas need. No, the problem with his analysis is not the prescriptions, nor is it his occasional failure to restrain himself in the silly jokes department ("Innocence is a lot like the air in your tires: There's not a lot you can do with it but lose it"). It's that Kincaid can't help himself. He's starry-eyed about children, too.'
Yes, indeed, 'starry-eyed about children' is what I'd call Kincaid, too.
93. ChristinO - June 17, 1998 - 11:16 AM PDT
Thomas: Re #84
Two things would help your case.
1)The source of your statistics.
2)If you didn't blame ALL the evils of the known world on single and unwed mothers.
Just curious, but has it never occurred to you that single parent homes are a symptom and not the disease?
94. ArielTheSprite - June 17, 1998 - 11:25 AM PDT
Chris, Message #91:
I think that what's being suggested is that erotic adult interest in children, especially very young ones, is 'nasty'.
Children exhibit great curiosity about their own bodies; I don't think anyone here would say that there is anything wrong with that. However, for adults to exhibit the same curiosity about children's bodies, including molestation of the object(s) of their interest, is something else entirely.
95. chloel - June 17, 1998 - 11:46 AM PDT
Extended adolescence is not at all unique to wealthy societies; it's much more dramatic in both Chinas, for instance, than here. That is, adolescents who would in the States be flirting a lot and thinking about someday getting jobs are, there, working a lot and thinking about someday flirting. (Last I heard, which was about a year ago & from Beijing & Taiwan.)
I agree with CristinO that children often experience themselves as sexual well before physical puberty. I expect society affects what they call that experience more than the experience... Maisie knew a lot, including that she wasn't supposed to know.
96. ChristinO - June 17, 1998 - 11:55 AM PDT
Ariel: I absolutely agree that adults should not (and normally do not) have erotic interest in children, but I wanted to make sure that the reason being given for this is not because children have no sexuality. I think that's a dangerous idea because it's a denial of the facts to suit an idea that has plenty of other support.
97. chloel - June 17, 1998 - 12:00 PM PDT
yes, when people believe that children have no sexuality and then meet one who does, they believe that that child is sick, evil, adult, seductive, whatever, and can accept worse treatment of that child.
98. KurtMondaugen - June 17, 1998 - 12:01 PM PDT
Christin/Ariel/Chloe:
Well, that's essentially what I've been saying. I called prepubescent sexuality 'latent' rather than 'abbeyant' in that, while it's not fully developed, it's not quite suppressed, either. I agree with Loar on our (America's) rationale for placing age of consent laws where we do, among other points (Message #90 perhaps), but I'm not sure I can agree with his decision to view this 'latent' sexuality as purely 'asexual', and as such wonder where a consensus can be reached as to where communication and acknowledgment (this does not mean activity, of course) among adults should begin.
99. ScottLoar - June 17, 1998 - 12:05 PM PDT
I would think that your example of China and Taiwan - adolescents "working a lot and thinking someday about flirting" - is the exact opposite of extended adolescence which is marked by irresponsibility and license. In both China and Taiwan the responsibilities of adult life (earning a living, pursuing education for monetary end, marrying, buying a home)come early but in US those responsibilities (the very word "responsibility" is anathema to the American young) are often delayed until late in one's twenties or early thirties, and only because our society allows so and prosperity underwrites that extended adolescence.
100. ScottLoar - June 17, 1998 - 12:11 PM PDT
To all, please give examples of genuinely lewd (preoccupied with sex and sexual desire) and lascivious (of or characterized by lust) behaviour in children. A 5 year-old exposing his pee-pee in the schoolyard?