1. IrvingSnodgrass - March 31, 1999 - 7:07 AM PT
We all have horror stories of really bad customer service. There are businesses I refuse to return to, and I'm sure most of you have places you won't go because of bad service. We've all also seen excellent customer service on occasion (why does it seem to be so much rarer?). How valuable is an individual customer to a business?
Share your experiences, bad and good. And discuss how important you think customer service is for the success of a business.
2. Judithathome - March 31, 1999 - 7:09 AM PT
How does one "satify" a customer, anyhow?
3. arkymalarky - March 31, 1999 - 7:11 AM PT
Oooh, I have to post my rant later. Class is about to start. Suffice it to say that there's one local fast food restaurant manager who'd better steer clear of me, and that will be hard to do in a relatively small town. At least she won't have to worry about encountering me where she works.
4. IrvingSnodgrass - March 31, 1999 - 7:27 AM PT
Judith:
Oops!!!
5. ChristiPeters - March 31, 1999 - 7:28 AM PT
I will make a point to go to stores with efficient frendly service. I also make a point to tell the managers how much I appreciate good service and to compliment the clerk by name to the manager.
I will do the same sort of thing if I get awful or no service. I will seek out the manager, say something on the order of "I came in here looking for thus-and-such, but I couldn't find (whatever fits - price, size, help getting it from a top shelf, ...) and couldn't get any help. So now I am taking my business (elsewhere, or I will name the store's main rival if I know it)."
In a smaller town, both these strategies have usually paid off for me. It doesn't work in stores which have a high turnover of clerks or so much transient business that you will never be remembered. However, if you get known either as "that wonderful lady who will tell the boss how good I am" or "that bitch that will get me in trouble with the boss", you can usually get good service.
If I get bad service and complaints don't help at all, I simply find somewhere else to shop.
continued....
6. Judithathome - March 31, 1999 - 7:29 AM PT
I was once treated rudely by a shoe clerk in a high dollar department store. When I called the next day to complain, I was put on hold and then disconnected. Twice. So I wrote a scathing letter and pointed out that I had recently spent over $2,000.00 on rugs from their home furnishings department and had planned to purchase one more rug. The likelihood of this happening was nil because I cut up my card and enclosed it with the letter. I received a toadying letter of apology with assurances it would never happen again and it hasn't...I've never set foot in the store again.
7. ChristiPeters - March 31, 1999 - 7:40 AM PT
I treat restaurants the same way.
If I get average, ok service - I leave a 20% tip and do nothing else.
If I get very good or outstanding service - I leave a 20% + tip, ask to see the manager, and compliment the server by name. I usually include specifics of what I particularly liked about the service - attitude, attention, whatever.
If I get bad service - I leave a small tip (how small depends on how bad, lowest is a penny - this is so they know I didn't just forget), ask to see the manager, and complain, again naming the server. Again, I use specifics, and try to state things in a positive way. For instance, instead of saying "--- didn't give us enough attention", I'll say "--- should have checked whether everything was all right with the food" or "--- should have checked if we needed drink refills", etc.
Since Lil' Darlin' is almost always with me, I discuss this with her. I explain what it takes to give good service, etc, as I have been a waitress and a store clerk, among other jobs. In fact, Lil' Darlin' loves to fill out the customer satisfaction card and calculate the tip in restaurants.
I think it is important to be a good customer as well. I do my best to be polite and pleasant. I smile, I say please, I say thank you. It doesn't take that much effort and it really pays off.
There are already restaurants here in Sherman where the servers will fight to get us in their section. &:o)
8. ChristiPeters - March 31, 1999 - 7:44 AM PT
Judithathome -
Good for you!
I hope you found what you wanted somewhere else!
I once continued to patronise a store even though I had poor service because I was buying something as a matched set a little bit at a time. It was a store brand/pattern and not available anywhere else. Of course, once I had all the pieces, I never set foot in that store again.
(Yes, as usual, I had complained. On the day I bought the last piece of the set, I made sure to repeat my complaint and tell them I wwas never coming back.)
9. arkymalarky - March 31, 1999 - 8:01 AM PT
What if you call to complain and they purposely hang up on you? Then when you call back to get the name of their superior they refuse to give it to you?
10. Raskolnikov - March 31, 1999 - 8:05 AM PT
Having been a retail store manager for several years, I have a balanced perspective. The customer is most definitely *not* always right, and is frequently an unreasonable whiner, but the level of foolish rudeness in retail and service industries frequently surprises me.
When customers come in with problems, they are frequently spoiling for a fight. They have rehearsed confrontational dialogue, and have worked their tempers up into a tizzy. I was often amazed by how quick I could get them on my side with a smile and a "don't worry, we'll solve the problem".
Too often, I see customers come into stores for a refund or exchange, and get suspicious looks, hostile body language, and curt communications, even while the staff is giving them their money back. I don't know why that as long as they are taking the financial hit anyway, they don't do it with a smile in order to keep the customer.
11. Raskolnikov - March 31, 1999 - 8:09 AM PT
arky: for chain stores, you can get the number for the district office from the phone book, or from another store.
For independent stores, wait a day and call later, or have someone else call and ask for the manager. or write a letter.
12. glendajean - March 31, 1999 - 8:10 AM PT
Customer service is an alien concept within the boundaries of the District of Columbia.
Many have read of the horror stories by our local government. But I often find local businesses have the same disdain for their customers.
13. Raskolnikov - March 31, 1999 - 8:12 AM PT
I have heard the DC ethic of customer service described as "Northern hospitality crossed with southern efficiency".
One of the few times in the past ten years that I stiffed a waiter was in DC. I gave him a $20 for a $13 tab, and he avoided our table for the next half hour in order to keep the change as a tip. We eventually had to follow him into the kitchen to corner him for the change.
14. glendajean - March 31, 1999 - 8:18 AM PT
JFK coined that phrase, Rask, or at least used it often.
The worst place here imo is the local giant hardware store, an equivalent of Home Depot.
It's often poorly stocked, and God forbid if you have a question. Every now and then I come across an employee who is helpful. So when it comes time to pick up things for household repairs, I balance whether I want the stress of driving to Alexandria or return to the store in the district.
Grocery stores here are often not much better.
15. Judithathome - March 31, 1999 - 8:28 AM PT
Rask:
I have another shoe story: recently, my husband wanted a pair of shoes that had been advertised in the paper; we went to the store and asked to try them on. The lady said they weren't available but offered to call another store, which in turn told her to call another store. We waited for about 20 minutes; she kept us informed as to what was going on; we kept waiting. She finally came to us and admitted there was no way she could find the shoes; she had been cut off from her last call.
Rather than get angry, I just smiled and thanked her profusely for all her trouble and told her we would check back in a few days. I was sooo nice...as I should have been because she had really tried. My husband said I was so nice, I probably made her feel awful...
16. elliot803 - March 31, 1999 - 8:28 AM PT
I just don't think it's worth my time and effort to praise good service or complain about bad service in a store or restaurant unless it's really, really exceptional. I don't think I've ever seen anyone ask to see a restaurant manager to praise outstanding service. I think that most people, like me, are more likely to complain about bad treatment than praise good treatment.
I would never complain in a restaurant until after I'd finished my food, though. You never know what they're going to do to it in the kitchen before they bring it out to you if you piss them off.
Compared the Europe, the quality of service you get in the U.S. is exceptional.
17. TheDiva - March 31, 1999 - 8:36 AM PT
Glendajean
You mean Hechinger? ARGH! Overpriced *and* inefficient. Gimme Home Depot any day.
I had a problem just this morning with my cable company. The customer service rep interrupted me, talked over me, raised her voice....I hung up, called back, got her supervisor, related the incident, and have written a letter to the head of the department.
What a waste of everyone's time.
18. Judithathome - March 31, 1999 - 8:39 AM PT
elliot:
I must have eaten in different places than you while in Europe...ha!
Maybe your town is different but good restaurant help is a rarity around here. We get indifferent, sulky twits who seem to resent the fact they have to work. That's why we eat almost exclusively at one place, a family owned restaurant with an exceptionally good chef and a waitstaff that is second to none. We tip very well and are always treated like royals...
I think it pays to compliment good service, in good karma if nothing else.
19. ChristiPeters - March 31, 1999 - 8:40 AM PT
"I would never complain in a restaurant until after I'd finished my food, though."
Absolutely, elliot! &:o)
I did say, but didn't emphasize that I do nothing but leave a tip for ok service. It is only really outstanding service that I compliment and really awful service I complain about.
I like to have regular dining nights out at 'favorite' restaurants. I also like to be spoiled and feel special. This is one way to accomplish that. At least it has worked for me.
I think it is nice to go into a restaurant and have the server remember us, remember what we ordered/liked that last time we were in and even make recommendations based on what is remembered about our tastes.
As I said, this might not be possible in a really large city. I don't know as I haven't lived in a large city since I was 18.
I have a friend who has worked as a waitress all her life and has a photographic memory. She remembers every customer and everything they like and dislike. People will stand in line to sit in her section even when there are open tables elsewhere in the restaurant. She averages $300/night in tips.
20. elliot803 - March 31, 1999 - 8:55 AM PT
Judith:
Well, I've gotten bad service in America, too, but in general it amazes me how much better service is here than in Europe, especially *France*, where in my experience every waiter acts like he's doing you a favor. And it's not just stores and restaurants, it's everything. The U.S. really is a consumer's paradise compared to the other countries I've visited or lived in.
21. Judithathome - March 31, 1999 - 8:59 AM PT
elliot:
Well....France. I wasn't including France; that is just to be expected there. It's part of their charm: that they have none.
I agree that the USA is a consumers paradise. We are taught to consume from the cradle and are encouraged to do so 'til the grave.
22. msivorytower - March 31, 1999 - 9:02 AM PT
Well, I've worked in retail and as a waitress, and I can tell you, that sometimes the whining gets very old. Some people are so damn rude and expect to return things USED without any problem, and I, as a lowly clerk was often treated as the customers lackey.
While I agree that stores and restaurants should always strive to please the customer, I also think customers have some obligation to be CIVIL themselves.
Unfortunately, the obliviously rude customers never get the clue, and can often ruin it for others who do have genuine complaints and handle them in a reasonable manner.
I have, upon occasion, told people I have observed yelling at some poor clerk that they need to take a chill and get a grip on their emotions. It is not a popular thing to do, btw. I also make it a point to try to tell clerks and wait staff that I see treated rudely that I think they were mistreated, and apologize on behalf of my fellow humans. It helps me to get better service, at the very least.
23. Judithathome - March 31, 1999 - 9:10 AM PT
Ms:
Well, I live in Texas where it's okay to carry a gun and I would never attempt to tell some rude yahoo that they were in need of chilling because they'd probably turn their wrath on me and I'd end up in the obits while the poor clerk would only suffer a hefty dry cleaning bill for his trousers.
24. msivorytower - March 31, 1999 - 9:16 AM PT
Judith
Did you know I'm in that state also? Central area. I risk it because this city is known as an oasis in the state of siege mentality prevailling in the rest of it. But I agree it's risky anywhere here.
25. Judithathome - March 31, 1999 - 9:18 AM PT
Ms:
Yeah, like Abilene....
26. CalGal - March 31, 1999 - 10:04 AM PT
It is always worth remembering that customer service is a cost center in almost every company that produces a product. And even when customer service is at the individual level (stores, restaurants, etc.), providing that service is overhead to the worker. If the worker isn't incented directly for their service (waiters, high-end retail workers), it is in fact unreasonable to expect anything other than the bare minimum.
The only thing that keeps workers being even reasonably friendly, apart from their basic good nature, is fear that they'll lose their job if their boss comes and sees them being rude. This is the boss's pro forma method of proving how he values customer service--when, in fact, if the boss truly valued customer service, he'd pay much more and expect more time spent per customer. He doesn't do this because most of the time, it's not worth it.
So you have a nice little reactive setup going on. Most customers accept shoddy service, the few who do not squawk and will usually get better service for squawking, unless the company simply doesn't care and can afford not to. Most workers provide acceptable service, but they aren't incented to do so (outside of commissioned and tipped personnel). And the boss (manager, owner, whatever) gives lip service to the idea that customer service is everything, when in most businesses it is a nicety easily done away with.
27. CalGal - March 31, 1999 - 10:06 AM PT
Regardless of the industry, those people providing customer service are always the lowest on the totem pole and have very little power. But they have far more than they use. I always feel rather impatient when someone tells me a story in praise of some low-level clerk who goes above and beyond the call of duty--as if *this* is the example to be followed. When in fact it is these well-meaning nice folks who are screwing the pooch.
All low-level service workers should perform in a manner appropriate to their pay and incentives. This would either aggravate the customers beyond bearing and they would leave--thereby forcing managers to truly value customer service--or it would prove that customers really don't value it all that much either, and low-level workers wouldn't get canned for being brusque and unsympathetic, which is all they are being paid for in the first place.
I wonder if the European service industry has figured this out, or if they are less fearful for their jobs because it's tougher to be fired.
28. arkymalarky - March 31, 1999 - 10:14 AM PT
Thanks, Rask. I've talked to their customer service number and if I don't hear something back in a day or two about what kinds of horrible punishment that woman got I'm going to get the district manager's name and write a letter.
OK, it's lunch, so here's my story. Some of you may remember my little paycheck disaster from a few weeks ago. There were numerous checks which bounced as a result of my paycheck not being properly stamped and deposited. The band cooperated and I assume everyone who I bounced a check with ran it back through as part of their routine and it was fine. Except this place. Friday I go to the mailbox to find an unpleasant notice from the Prosecuting Attorney to the effect that I could go to jail if I didn't pay $6.38 for the hamburgers at this place, plus a $25 fee.
I called the hamburger place to ask them why they didn't run the check back through, or call the local number on it, or anything besides just sending it directly to the PA, since we've eaten there fairly often over the past few years since the place has been opened. I didn't get ugly, though I was firm. The woman hung up on me and when I called back she refused to give me her district manager's name. I still just boil every time I think about it.
29. Judithathome - March 31, 1999 - 10:59 AM PT
CalGal:
I come from a different time than you...I'm surprised at your remarks that a person has no reason to be polite unless they are making a decent wage. I always thought it was expected of workers to be pleasant and courteous to customers; if a business loses customers and closes down, there goes the job.
30. Jenerator - March 31, 1999 - 11:00 AM PT
One of my worst memories from waitressing took place at a Mexican restaurant I used to work in. On a Friday night, a man and wife with their four children came in. He was immediately hostile with me, so I bent over backwards to try and give him the best service possible. I even gave up two tables so that I could give him the amount of time and service he wanted. First, he ordered a frozen margarita. I brought him one, he yelled "No you idiot, I asked for a Margarita on the rocks!".
I asked him if he wanted an appetizer, he ordered queso. I brought him queso, and he scowled at me and yelled "Not queso you idiot, I wanted chicken quesadillas!". I alerted my manager, so he watched everything from a short distance. When it came time to take his family's order, I carefully wrote everything down and repeated it all to him. When his order was ready, I showed it to the manager, and he double checked everything. I brought the order to him with a smile. He rolled his eyes and said "I didn't order the enchildada plate". I took another order for him (his wife and kids weren't complaining), and brought it out in four minutes. He grimaced the entire time he ate. I brought him the check, he gave me his credit card and filled it out. Then I came to take the receipt and he said "Here you go young lady, your tip!" And then proudly put a penny on the table. I was so angry. I looked at my manager who shook his head with disbelief. The tab was over 100 dollars, and my portion of tip-out on that bill was close to ten bucks, so I knew that because of him, it was going to wind up costing ME money to serve him.
(cont.)
31. Jenerator - March 31, 1999 - 11:01 AM PT
I said "Gee thanks sir, what a gracious tip, a whole penny for busting my ass for an hour over you. Gosh with this here penny I can feed the homeless, or put a down payment on a new car. PLEASE come back real soon, the world needs more customers like you to make us all remember there are still cheap jerks in the world." Then I put his penny back in his hand and told him that he better keep it, he clearly needed it more than me. His jaw dropped to the floor.
I got written up for it, but I wound up leaving the restaurant two weeks later anyway.
32. Judithathome - March 31, 1999 - 11:08 AM PT
CalGal:
I know it is common these days to make nouns into verbs and it is a practice that gauls me. I did not *parent* my child; I was a parent. I'm hopelessly old fashioned, I know, but *incenting* workers sounds positively painful. :-)
33. Raskolnikov - March 31, 1999 - 11:10 AM PT
arky: The PA won't prosecute something that petty. Write them out a check for the $6.38 and tell them that if they reall want to pay the $40 filing fee to get $25 from you in court, they can.
34. msivorytower - March 31, 1999 - 11:10 AM PT
Jenerator
I think everyone who has ever waited tables must have a story like that.
It sometimes amazes me how rude people can be to those they expect will "serve" them.
35. CalGal - March 31, 1999 - 11:41 AM PT
Judith,
If you are paid to give people burgers and a coke, are you also paid to smile? If there is a huge line behind one customer who is complaining because the fries are cold and he wants his money back NOW, dammit, and there are only two people serving and to take one person away will make all those other people wait even longer, is this an appropriate decision for someone who makes minimum wage?
It is not so much whether or not one is polite. It is whether or not one should be expected to satisfy the customer, given the parameters.
Customer service is a myth. I am not complaining, because explaining that myth to management is how I make my living.
But in another thread I have been discussing game theory with Slackjaw (to the best of my limited ability), and he introduced me also to the concept of implementation theory. Given the "game" rules that we have for most industries, we should be surprised when we receive good customer service, not outraged when we don't. If we want to expect good customer service, we should redesign the game.
But we won't--for one thing, costs would go up. For another, many people in the service industry get a kick out of going above and beyond the call of duty for the way it makes them feel, even if they get no other reward. I can tell them until I'm blue in the face that they aren't only not doing themselves any good, they aren't doing the company--or the customer--any good. But all for naught. I am flummoxed. Sigh.
36. Jenerator - March 31, 1999 - 12:05 PM PT
MsIT,
Like you, I have worked both in retail and in restaurants. For me, the hardest job was waitressing. Not only was it physically demanding, but the pay was sporadic, and the clientele was even worse. (Even at the nice places). How about for you?
37. Jenerator - March 31, 1999 - 12:09 PM PT
I believe that in order to have a better staff of waitors/waitresses, the starting wage needs to be increased significantly. Last time I waited tables, the base wage was $2.10 an hour. Has it changed? One night I made $700 dollars. Another night, I owed the restaurant $30 dollars. The pay can really stink. Plus, breaks are impossible to take when busy, and everyone needs a break every now and then.
38. msivorytower - March 31, 1999 - 12:15 PM PT
Jenerator
Which was worse? Probably waitressing, but it's a hard call.
I must admit when I began waiting tables, the pay was something like $1.50 an hour. Howard Johnsons, senior year in HS.
39. Jenerator - March 31, 1999 - 12:19 PM PT
I actually thought about waiting tables again before going to England to make some quick cash. But, after about two mintues of reminiscing, I decided not to. I don't think I could bear being in that environment again, and I don't really want to work two jobs!
40. pellenilsson - March 31, 1999 - 12:20 PM PT
I have only been to the US once; a one-week telecom conference in St Petersburg, Florida. I was impressed by the customer service I encountered. Car-rental, restaurants, supermarkets; very polite staff, sometimes a little overdone I thought, but that may be the reflection of a European who is used to worse.
41. Judithathome - March 31, 1999 - 12:28 PM PT
pelle:
I thought Scandinavians were really nice in the restaurants and shops when we were there. One girl was so helpful, she left the store and walked us a little way down the street to point out a place we were looking for. And even tho we were totally inept at ordering our food, the waiters were patient and helpful. We were in Norway, Denmark, and Sweden and had terrific experiences all around.
42. msivorytower - March 31, 1999 - 12:29 PM PT
Pelle
I used to live right near St. Petersburg. St. Pete Beach, as a matter of fact. Actually, my VERY first job was working the after lunch crowd at the soda fountain in the downtown drug store (I think these have almost disappeared in this country now). I don't consider that waiting tables, since it was a counter, and I simply walked up and down it.
I learned how to clean an industrial range in that job, and to clean a grease trap (yuck), and to make sun tea, and to make an honest-to-god ice cream soda.
Now those customers were lovely. All local businessmen and afternoon women shoppers who had tolerance and kindness for a gawky young thing in her first paying job.
43. Judithathome - March 31, 1999 - 12:36 PM PT
I can speak highly of one place that has exceptional customer service and that is the dealership where my husband bought my car. They are very attentive and treat me like I'm the only customer in the world. Of course, they have a vested interest, I suppose. But we've bought American cars before and never received the attention we get with this British one.
44. KurtMondaugen - March 31, 1999 - 1:05 PM PT
One simple way to get excellent service in retail or food establishments is to avoid as much as possible all chain-stores or corporate franchises. Shop local and independent as much as possible and you will notice the improvement almost immediatly. Granted, many small shop owners have their own idiosyncracies, and some are downright assholes, but those can be easily tolerated and/or avoided, and any drawbacks (somewhat slower service, etc.) are more than made up for.
45. CalGal - March 31, 1999 - 1:07 PM PT
Kurt,
Right. And the prices are generally higher as a result.
No complaints here, btw, since that's my approach. I always go to privately owned grocery stores--the smaller the better.
46. arkymalarky - March 31, 1999 - 1:09 PM PT
Well, rats, Rask. We already paid it. I could have stomached that, though, even though it was partly the fault of a bank error, if it hadn't been for that manager's rudeness.
47. KurtMondaugen - March 31, 1999 - 1:14 PM PT
CalGal:
Yeah, the prices are generally higher, but only slightly. And besides, it's hard to feel bad about giving a shopowner his marginal retail markup as long as it will keep his/her doors open and prolong the replacement of his/her store with another new Starbucks or something. I've got a few shopowners in town that I can now consider friends after years of regularly utilizing their services. How can one not want to see these people succeed? Oh, and for groceries we're co-op all the way.
48. Judithathome - March 31, 1999 - 1:34 PM PT
Kurt:
That is so true; we shop neighborhood stores and don't mind paying extra. If more people would do that, this country wouldn't be covered with clone restaurants and mega bookstores.
49. KurtMondaugen - March 31, 1999 - 1:35 PM PT
And then, of course, there's always online shopping, for which you generally don't have to deal with another human at all. Always welcome, but that opens up a whole 'nuther can of service worms in as of itself.
50. KurtMondaugen - March 31, 1999 - 1:38 PM PT
Judith:
Megabookstore. Ugh. Speaking as someone who worked for a rare/antique bookdealer recently forced out of business, you probably shouldn't get me started on the "megabookstore" cancer.
51. Judithathome - March 31, 1999 - 1:54 PM PT
Kurt:
Just last week, the oldest privately owned bookstore in our city closed its doors forever. I can remember spending days at that place...the owner had moved in big old leather chairs and would serve us tea while we read. He was way ahead of his time, evidently.
I can still recall the dusty aroma of that store...
52. CalGal - March 31, 1999 - 1:56 PM PT
Kurt,
The problem is that many of the smaller stores simply don't have what most people want. It isn't corporations that are running rampant over small businesses; it is the people who want them.
As for mega-bookstores--Barnes & Noble do a good job, unfortunately. They provide comfort, reasonable expertise, and good selection. Ditto Starbucks. I am agnostic on these issues--I go to small grocery stores because I don't have to wait in line, not out of any desire to help small businesses. In my experience, the small businesses that can provide what the customers want will always be able to hold their own against the big guys. I know many small groceries that have easily withstood Luckys or Safeway or Vons as a next door neighbor.
Starbucks, Java City, and small coffeehouses--a draw. Mix and match.
But B&N is the near death knell for the indie bookseller--precisely because they do such a good job. B. Dalton and Waldenbooks never threatened, because they were schlock. And what B&N doesn't take, Amazon will.
53. msgreer - March 31, 1999 - 2:01 PM PT
Best customer service : Land's End. They will stay on the phone with you forever going over sizes, colors and general ideas for a special occasion.
I got a lovely, hand signed card from last December with personal notes to me and my daughter.
Once, right before leaving on a trip I placed on order for 2 outfits with their help in size. They came and they were absolutely the wrong sizes. I called them immediately and they said, we will send out the correct sizes overnight and just return the other merchandise when you return from you trip.
I couldn't believe it. I made sure I had those outfits returned overnight.
They work with you every step of the way. Land's End, that's where to go.
54. KurtMondaugen - March 31, 1999 - 2:02 PM PT
CalGal:
Smaller stores can always special order what a customer wants from another dealer or directly from the publishers. The problem is that the customer is often unwilling to wait, and will often order from B&N or Amazon.com instead. What Mr. Dipshit Customer doesn't realize is that B&N and Amazon.com, in the case of special orders, PURCHASE THEIR MERCHANDISE FROM SMALLER STORES AND ADD AN ADDITIONAL 15-20% MARKUP!!! So, the giant companies make money off the small retailers while effectively running them out of business. If that's 'doing a good job', then maybe I'm looking at this from the wrong angle.
55. CalGal - March 31, 1999 - 2:11 PM PT
Kurt,
As far as "good job", I was thinking of the fact that B&N stores have plenty of places to sit and read, good selection, and at least one or two of their sales staff has not only read books, but has read a *lot* of books.
And I'm terribly sorry, but fooling the customer into waiting extra time and paying more for the same book is, indeed, doing a good job. If it's any comfort, Amazon is losing money like mad. Consider, though, that Amazon is charging the markup for the service of checking all of the bookstores they have access to--as well as the service of *having* all those bookstores to check.
Finally, if the customer chooses to use Amazon rather than wait for a small indie to do the same thing, that is the customer's choice. Not to be blamed on the mega bookstores. As I said above, "It isn't corporations that are running rampant over small businesses; it is the people who want them. "
56. KurtMondaugen - March 31, 1999 - 2:13 PM PT
CalGal:
But as you and I and probably everyone here knows, the people are idiots.
57. Judithathome - March 31, 1999 - 2:15 PM PT
The megastores leave me cold...plus you go in and ask a clerk for help and mention an author and they look at you like you were speaking Sanskrit. I asked a kid at the INFORMATION desk if they had Brills Content and he just looked at me with an open mouth and blank stare. "Dunno." issued forth from his slack little puss and I left the store.
Completely soulless, most of them. Successful, sure, because all the SUV driving career persons swan in and have coffee and buy coffee table books to decorate their minimalist living rooms so when they have friends over for coffee, they can be admired as literate.
58. CalGal - March 31, 1999 - 2:18 PM PT
Kurt,
It is my mantra: People are stupid.
Judith,
Around here, B&N bookstores are practically one to a block, and they are often chock full of people reading and discussing books. When I'm between contracts, I will often go hang out at one for an hour or two, just for fun. The clerks are a good solid cut above what you used to get at B. Dalton or Waldenbooks, although certainly not the quality you get at an indy or a good library.
59. Judithathome - March 31, 1999 - 2:23 PM PT
CalGal:
I live in Texas, remember?
Being well-read means knowing what's up with the Dallas Cowboys and when the next NASCAR race is scheduled.
60. vonKreedon - March 31, 1999 - 2:30 PM PT
Interesting, I almost never go to a book store and ask the staff anything other than where a certain type of book is located. That being said, I actually prefer the B&N/Borders type of store, LOTS of books, espresso deli, big well lit chairs. There is in the Seattle area a small chain, Elliot Bay, a name I forget, and Third Place, that are really the ideal, LOTS of books, good espresso deli, comfy chairs AND attentive staff. But as I say, this is actually a chain, though currently local and small.
61. arkymalarky - March 31, 1999 - 2:32 PM PT
Judith,
Love the last paragraph of #57.
I've got a fun small town restaurant story. In the little town where I work there are two "restaurants." Both serve lunch plates which are often very good and sometimes colleagues and I would call and see which one was offering the best sounding lunch special and get food to go. During the summer we'd go there and eat when we were working at school. One day one of the restaurants had fish and hushpuppies. I asked for butter and the lady brought out a plate with individual butter packets on it, the plastic kind with the peel-off tops. Well, I grabbed a packet and started to open it and it was already opened. I looked in and it was half used up. I grabbed another, and it was the same. Every packet on that plate had been used. Needless to say, I no longer call to compare lunch specials. I just go to the other place.
62. harper - March 31, 1999 - 2:35 PM PT
Customer service horror story:
I won't shop at Macy's and haven't set foot in the place for years. THREE TIMES I went to Macy's with the advertisement for the merchandise I wanted in my hand. And three times I came away empty-handed. The first time, the sales clerk said they didn't carry the item at that store and called to order it from another store. She rang it up for me and said it would be delivered. It never was (and I think I even paid for it). The second time,I asked about a blouse (I had the ad in my hand) and was told, rudely, "If you read the ad, you'll see that item isn't carried in this store." I stuck the ad under his nose and said, "And if YOU'LL read the ad, you'll see that it IS." I walked out. The third time, I went in to buy bed linens, ad in hand. Once again, I was told that the item wasn't carried in that particular store. The sales clerk got on the phone and called several different branch store and couldn't locate the item. I was pissed, so I asked for the manager (getting tired of bait and switch or whatever tactic they were using -- all of these occurred at the same Virginia suburb store). The manager wasn't there, but the sales clerk took my office phone number and said she would have the manager call me. that never happened. Three strikes and you're out.
OTOH, when we went to Ireland, we had a royal screw-up with the rental car. Either they guy who rented the car didn't put the other driver's name down or the travel agent didn't. In any case, we went to pick up the rental car (the person who rented it wasn't going to be in town until later that day, so we had arranged to pick it up then meet up with him & his wife). HE had rented the car in conjunction with the symposium he was attending in order to get better rates.
63. davidtudor - March 31, 1999 - 2:36 PM PT
Barnes & Nobles certainly LOOK impressive - all those books, all those categories, pleasant little nooks & crannies.
But - at least in my experience, it is mostly just skin deep. Very few of the books I seek out are what I would call esoteric, but time after time, they don't have them. Time after time as well, the saleshelp reveal rudimentary knowledge at best.
But, as I say, the look is nice.
I for one will gladly pay the extra 10% or so to keep the various independent booksellers around still around.
64. KurtMondaugen - March 31, 1999 - 2:37 PM PT
vonK:
Third Place actually bought the inventory from the dealer I worked for when he shut his doors. I'm not impressed with their stores, myself. Sort of a cross between the hideous, malignant Megastores and the "Half-Price" cut-out/return outlets, and thoroughly unpleasant. Elliot Bay has always been a respectable store, but since Third Place bought them out, I don't have much hope.
65. harper - March 31, 1999 - 2:39 PM PT
Continued...
So there we were at the airport outside of Dublin trying to get to our B&B. The lady at the car rental desk was as nice and patient as she could be. It took about an hour and a lot of phone calls to get things straightened out, and my friend had to plunk down his plastic to pay for insurance, but we got the car. The rental car lady never lost her temper or her patience. We thanked her profusely for her efforts. That was customer service.
I shop at Nordstrom's because they have the best customer service I've ever seen at a department store. My girlfriend, the shoe-shopper from hell, put them to the test one night. The sales clerk was polite, efficient, and even took back a USED pair of shoes she'd bought months ago at another Nordstrom's -- no sales receipt, no nothin'. She left about an hour later, delighted, with four new pairs of shoes. I hope the sales clerk got a bonus and hazard pay.
66. glendajean - March 31, 1999 - 2:42 PM PT
Thomas Freidman, the foreign affairs columnist for the NY Times, wrote a column last month about a fellow in Iowa who always wanted to own his own independent bookstore. When this guy discovered that purchasing 5 books of a title from a wholesaler gave him the same price break as amazon.com, he looked into starting his own website bookstore.
So he started an on-line store. He ran the whole thing out of a spare bedroom. Freidman did a follow-up column saying that it was growing so big, the family had moved their internet store into the family dining room.
They are processing orders from around the world.
67. arkymalarky - March 31, 1999 - 2:51 PM PT
I usually order from the local bookstore, run by the wife of a paraplegic poet who loved books. He died ten or fifteen years ago, but she still runs the store out of their home. The main drawback, other than the fact that she's very eccentric (I don't consider that a problem, but some of my students do) is that anything you buy off the shelf is going to smell like cats. It's not a place to sit and read, but she's very accomodating and the longer the store stays open the longer the memory of a gentle friend of the town remains alive.
68. KurtMondaugen - March 31, 1999 - 4:50 PM PT
In light of the Fray blockout which just occurred, perhaps we could relocate this discussion to the Technical Issues Thread.
69. ScottLoar - March 31, 1999 - 9:43 PM PT
Some of the nastiest are customers. The adults who are shuttled to an event and pile 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and more out of the van and not one gives the driver a tip. The man at an open bar telling the bartender "gim'me a rum and coke", no "please" or "thank you", as if he's a gunman from the Wild West.
70. FreeToChoose - April 3, 1999 - 6:46 AM PT
How ironic that we have a thread on customer service.
Here is a suggested rule for a service with a web site:
If your site is not accessible for a long period of time, say 54 hours, please post some sort of notice.
It doesn't have to tell us precisely when the problem will end, but at least acknowledge that there is a problem, some hint whether it is expected to be resolved immediately.
Post the message where it can be easily seen, not at the bottom of a thread.
71. soraleah - April 4, 1999 - 5:49 PM PT
Some groups of so-called "professionals," loaded down with what they call "ethics," sometimes -- even often? -- resort to high-handed tactics to make sure they're the only game in town, that customers must come to them -- and pay them -- whether they will or nay.
I'm thinking of doctors, their super-tight union, and an egregious local incident that recently came to pass.
A home birth took place, with a skilled midwife in attendance. Because the baby had a complication common to 15% to 20% of newborns, the midwife drove him to a nearby hospital. Doctors treated the baby, and he is doing fine.
But then the doctors had the midwife arrested and charged with felony child-abuse, apparantly on the theory that driving the child herself, instead of calling an ambulance constituted a felony! ... At least that was their excuse.
Others feel this is a prime example of the medical profession's notion of "doctor ethics," namely: Have a child, pay a doctor -- or else!
72. Ronski - April 5, 1999 - 5:46 AM PT
The medical profession, like the legal one, is a virtual cabal.
73. bubbaette - April 5, 1999 - 6:23 AM PT
Here in Richmond, VA., we have the best grocery store that I know of -- Ukrops. I've been shopping there since I moved here in 1989, and have never once been treated rudely by a store employee. It's locally owned and they place great emphasis on customer service. In fact, at times I hesitate to ask a store employee if they have an item because if they can't find it on the shelf, they'll go search the stockroom. They also carry your groceries to your car for you and load them in.
Their prices are a little higher than the chain stores, but it strikes me as a very good place to work for students and the elderly. I don't mind paying the difference. The only fly in the ointment is that they don't sell beer or wine, and have a big sign on the wall suggesting that everyone attend a house of worship this week.
74. bubbaette - April 5, 1999 - 6:24 AM PT
When I was in highschool, I used to work at a small local grocery store. Rather than feeling that I wasn't paid enough to provide good customer service, being pleasant and helpful made the job nicer. Why scowl and grump all day when you can enjoy yourself?
75. arkymalarky - April 5, 1999 - 9:16 AM PT
Knowing who you work for and who you're buying from makes for a difference in attitude I think. There are two chain grocery stores in the town where I do most of my business and one privately owned mom & pop store where I teach. The small store doesn't have as good a selection, but I like shopping there. Their produce is always fresh and so are their meats.
76. marshame - April 5, 1999 - 5:47 PM PT
Speaking of book stores... I was shopping for some books for someone in prison. I find what I want at Barnes & Noble, then order it from Amazon.com. Anyhow, I was looking for what I considered to be classics in English and American literature, stuff I loved when I was the age of the person incarcerated, etc. And shock of shocks, very few titles could I find on the shelves. Only one title by Daphne DuMaurier, only one or two titles by Steinbeck, Wolfe, etc. I guess they're so busy stocking the shelves with the latest best sellers that classics go by the wayside.
77. jexster - April 5, 1999 - 10:14 PM PT
I'd like to hear some customer service stories from Slate.com. I bet there are one or two side-splitters from the umbrella (aka 'charter subscriber') crowd.
78. ChristiPeters - April 6, 1999 - 6:35 AM PT
That reminds me. When I resubscribed, I picked an umbrella.
WHERE'S
MY
UMBRELLA !?!?!
GRRRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!
79. msgreer - April 6, 1999 - 11:55 AM PT
Christi...did you get my email this morning? I am trying to find out the problem. thanks.
i was told by one *expert* that email through hotmail often has problems because they use so many network services to deliver the email.
my ISP has helped me for the last 45 minutes and says comcast, which i have, is noting no problems.
i will check with my sisters and see if they are getting emails, they use aol and voyager.
i have been making calls like crazy to clients and research centers i use.
80. ChristiPeters - April 6, 1999 - 12:00 PM PT
msgreer -
The only email I got from you today was one dated last Friday. I have checked my hotmail as recently as an hour ago. Did you send it less than an hour ago?
81. ChristiPeters - April 6, 1999 - 12:01 PM PT
Oh, I forgot to say - I am getting email from other people a 'normal' time after they have sent it. Your email is the only one which seems to have a multi-day delay.
82. msgreer - April 6, 1999 - 12:02 PM PT
cp...i sent it right after you told me the email's you were getting from me were 3-4 days old. so, i sent it hours ago.
83. ChristiPeters - April 6, 1999 - 12:07 PM PT
hmmmm....
Just in case, I'll check again.
Be back in a mo'
84. ChristiPeters - April 6, 1999 - 12:12 PM PT
Nope, even when I make it look again, hotmail says I have no mail. So what ever has been going on, is *still* going on. I'd start screaming at my ISP if I were you.
85. msgreer - April 6, 1999 - 12:18 PM PT
cp..oh, i am starting to scream. send me a line or two via email and let me see if you get through. thanks. this will give me more information to scream louder my ISP.
mom is home now. i had lunch with her this afternoon. i would like to write about it, so many fraysters have been so kind during this ordeal, but i need to solve this problem first.
needless to say, she is a sad lady. she is moving back downtown, probably less than 2 blocks from me. i am delighted.
86. ChristiPeters - April 6, 1999 - 12:24 PM PT
msgreer -
hotmail comin' atcha'
87. msgreer - April 6, 1999 - 12:38 PM PT
cp.. was on the phone with first level isp. he asked me to send you an email while he waited on the phone to see if you would answer. i said she would if she could get it. anyway, i am now holding for next level isp somewhere in california... probably a 15 minute wait.
damn
damn
damn
88. msgreer - April 6, 1999 - 12:41 PM PT
cp...did not receive your latest email... i am about to tear someone's hair out.
perhaps they will do something when i tell them all the people i have to call to see if they got my email.
tried to tell them this is no way for a person to run a business.
thanks for all your help and patience.
89. Raskolnikov - April 6, 1999 - 12:54 PM PT
tip: never use Hotmail to verify whether another e-mail addy is working. It is notoriously unreliable.
90. ChristiPeters - April 6, 1999 - 12:59 PM PT
Hmmmm...
Rask,
I haven't had any trouble with hotmail. Everyone I've ever emailed has indicated they have received the mail.
Maybe I'm lucky?
Maybe I just don't email enough?
&:o)
91. Raskolnikov - April 6, 1999 - 1:15 PM PT
usually the problem is in not receiving some e-mails via Hotmail. I don't use it myself, largely because several friends told me it was unreliable.
92. msgreer - April 6, 1999 - 1:27 PM PT
Rasko... you say it is not in receiving the email from hotmail. i am beginning to believe hotmail is abit overloaded...
the isp i worked with had me email him at several email address' and he answered immediately via hotmail, net, aol....
curiously, i got 3 replies from him via hotmail although he only sent one.
figure that one out.
93. msgreer - April 6, 1999 - 1:29 PM PT
ps... i called san francisco, chicago, miami and israel... everyone had gotten my email... just behind in answering.
94. Raskolnikov - April 6, 1999 - 1:48 PM PT
I wasn't clear. Usually the problem I have heard is that you have a Hotmail account, and you don't get mail people send to you. The multiple messages problem is common too.
95. msgreer - April 6, 1999 - 1:58 PM PT
Rask... i believe you are right. much as christi peters has told me she is having no problem with sending or receiving her email at hotmail, i'm not trusting them... either it will work it's way out or i will just have to wait days for hotmail folks to receive anything i send.
96. ChristiPeters - April 6, 1999 - 2:54 PM PT
well, after all, hotmail is a Microsoft product
97. ChristiPeters - April 6, 1999 - 2:55 PM PT
Have I told anyone here yet that I thought Office 95 was ok (not great, but ok), but I absolutely HATE Office 97 ?
98. CalGal - April 6, 1999 - 3:05 PM PT
Christi,
Actually, I think MS just purchased Hotmail, yes? I don't think it began life as such.
And I can't stand Word97, at any rate.
As a side note to all: while it's fun to bitch about customer service, it is worth remembering that the people most responsible for lousy customer service are customers.
99. ChristiPeters - April 6, 1999 - 3:23 PM PT
I don't know CalGal, hotmail seems to have been a Microsoft product the whole time I've been using it, but I *am* a 'newbie' to hotmail.
As far as your comment: "it is worth remembering that the people most
responsible for lousy customer service are customers."
I totally disagree with you there, but then I've disagreed with just about everything you've said about customer service on this thread so far. I just saw no point in discussing it with you as I got the impression that your opinion on this subject is set in stone.
Not the first time, and won't be the last time, we've disagreed.
*shrug*
100. CalGal - April 6, 1999 - 3:27 PM PT
Christi,
Actually, building customer service systems is generally what I do for a living. Which makes me closer to an expert on this subject than most.
But what did I say you disagree with?
101. CharlieL - April 6, 1999 - 4:20 PM PT
HotMail started its existence as an independent, and Microsoft bought it a while ago.
102. Jenerator - April 6, 1999 - 6:22 PM PT
I can't believe I'm in Slate with Resonance and Azure and nobody else!!
Only an addict would do this!
Well, at least I'm keeping the customer happy.
Or am I?
Isn't there anything better to do?
103. arkymalarky - April 6, 1999 - 6:24 PM PT
I'm here!(though probably not for long)
104. rustlerpike - April 8, 1999 - 11:03 AM PT
You malurking again, arky?
105. IrvingSnodgrass - April 8, 1999 - 6:00 PM PT
I had planned to RIP this thread, but now I see that Slate, once again taking its lead from the Fray, has instituted a new Shopping Avenger feature to defend the beleaguered consumer.
So I guess this thread will stay around a bit longer.
106. joezan - April 8, 1999 - 6:26 PM PT
Has anyone else noticed this somewhat disconcerting trend in retail stores over the past couple of years? - from small retailers, where you need to show proof of dismemberment before they'll refund you or return your item, to the larger megamarkets with no-questions-asked return policies, none of them, any longer, ever, a) admit it was their mistake, or, b) apologize. They just hand you your little form, tell you to "fill it out completely and bring it to the register", and then go about their business.
People around here are some of the friendliest people you'd ever want to meet - and the retail help are just as friendly as ever - except for this return thing. I guess it's one of those things that just get by you, but when I mention it to friends it seems to ring a bell, and they say "Hey, ya know....that's right!"
Anyway, does anyone know if this is some kind of insurance or loss prevention thing? It just came on too quickly not to have been.
107. uzmakk - April 12, 1999 - 5:43 AM PT
I think it is part of the "economics of scale". Those monstrosities do fine with a well functioning return loop. Smaller businesses cannot afford this luxury. My personal philosophy has always been make the customer happy up to the point where I tell him to kiss my hinder. People who are truly successful in business do not share my philosophy. Ofcourse everything depends on who your clientele are.
108. Ronski - April 12, 1999 - 7:13 AM PT
We had this problem with the bank holding the mortgage on the new house. As a condition of the loan, we have a checking account with them and electronic deduction. The first four payments were not deducted, and overdue notices started coming to the house, with late payment surcharges.
In the course of trying to correct the mistake, we encountered unreturned phone calls, unmet promises of the problem being corrected, and even a bit of rudeness on the part of one person we spoke to. The bank screwed up in a couple of other areas, too.
Only when we sent a letter to the original loan officer, who is fairly high ranking, did the problem get solved.
The worse that could have happened was some negative misinformation being placed in our credit reports, and it was an annoyance. But it does make you wonder what is going on. Computer problems getting ready for Y2K? And a not-so-subtle change in the culture of doing business? Is it because business is good? Is there more customer attention when times are tough? Is it because of the vanishing right to fire at will? Is there a confusion now between the public and private sectors, so that the service stinks equally in both areas?
Generally speaking, as long as there are other places to take your business, I don't mind rudeness and incompetance too much. I figure it is just part of some humans' nature, and that they are just harming themselves, since I'll shop elsewhere. Unfortunately, if you get incompetance from a government service, there is nowhere to go but the ballot box, which is a goodly distance to travel.
109. MsIvoryTower - April 12, 1999 - 8:19 PM PT
I'd say that Uzmakk is correct as to why smaller retailers are more anxious (rude, hostile?) to returns than larger mega-stores. The losses from returns can be staggering, particularly for those who abuse the system. The difference in controlling such losses can make or break a year for a small retailer, whereas a large chain will just take a larger tax write-off.
110. Raskolnikov - April 12, 1999 - 9:47 PM PT
There is also a hell of a lot of fraud by consumers when it comes to returns. People *hate* to be taken advantage of. Even an employee who doesn't give two shits for customer service or helping the company keep costs down on any other occasion starts acting like it is their personal money when someone comes to the return counter.
I used to have to lecture on this incessantly, repeating my mantra that returns and exchanges *define* customer service for a lot of customers, and that it was paramount to assume that the customer was honest until given a reason to believe otherwise.
Unfortunately, reasons to believe otherwise are very common. I know of several circumstances where someone tried to return a shoplifted item. One person I know of just grabbed an item off the shelf and took it directly to the return counter, claiming they lost the receipt, and asking for cash back.
Or there was the guy who tried returning an item after he had used it for two years, with a fruitless attempt to doctor the receipt date.
It doesn't take too many of these before you start wondering about every customer who tries to return an item, particularly those without receipts.
Not defending the rudeness. Just explaining it.
111. CalGal - April 12, 1999 - 10:22 PM PT 113. arkymalarky - April 14, 1999 - 3:42 PM PT
I had an amusing exchange today dealing with a woman who had the impression that I was her customer and learned, to her dismay, that I was not.
I didn't receive my paycheck on Friday (I am a consultant working temp for an agency and the check is mailed to be received on Friday). So I called payroll and asked what was up. The clerk said, "Well, I don't know. We mailed it out."
I said, patiently, "Yes. But it's not here. Where did you send it?"
She read off my address. The apartment number wasn't there. I said, "Oh. The apartment number isn't there. It won't get here without it. But I've received two checks prior to this week. What changed?"
She said, "Nothing."
I said, "Well, yes. Something changed. But put that aside for the moment. When will I get my check?"
She said, "Well, it will get to the office on Wednesday and we'll mail it too you."
I said, patiently. "But it didn't get here last time. Yes, you've changed the address but I'm worried there is some other problem. I'd rather you mail this one here, so that I'm not behind *two* paychecks if there is a problem."
She said, "Look, we try to give good service here, but all we need to do is give a good faith effort." Pause. "What is so funny?"
I said, still laughing, "Listen. You will either assure me that you will WALK a check to this client site if I don't get paid on Friday or you will Fedex me the check on Wednesday. Another alternative is to find out why this check didn't make it."
She was upset. "Ma'am, I'm trying to help you..."
I said, "Try less. Do more. Who the fuck do you think I am, your customer? This is my paycheck. There are laws. Get the fuck out of this 'try' mode."
"If you don't be more polite, I'll have to give you to my manager."
"Yep. Do that."
She was clearly taken aback. The "manager" option had been her threat--most of the employees at her site are help desk staff--customer service folk, in fact--who are low level and properly intimidated by the mere mention of a manager. So she tries to backtrack, "You know, I'm sure if you just..."
I said, "No, sweetie, you're useless and I'm pissed off and out of patience. Manager. Now."
I got the manager, who reluctantly revealed that they had switched payroll systems last week and that my apartment number probably got lost in the shuffle. She readily agreed that if I didn't get my checks on Friday that they'd deliver me a handwritten check if necessary.
I was satisfied and went back to work.
I'm glad to give an update on my check story before this thread is ripped. I'd hate for any of y'all to be left hanging, just wondering whether I got justice or not.
I got a check from the PA in the mail which my bank had written them and they had signed over to me. I had not even told the bank about it, so I assume the PA called them. I called back the customer service line for the hamburger chain and told them I still hadn't heard from the restaurant, and they said they would see that I got a response from the area manager asap.